Fig of total economic output / MON 9-14-20 / Jeans brand popular in the 1980s / Green-fleshed fruit / Lamented princess of Wales

Monday, September 14, 2020

Constructor: John Guzzetta

Relative difficulty: Easy-Medium (2:50)


THEME: HAS IT BOTH WAYS (55A: Comes out ahead in either case ... as exemplified by 19-, 29-, 36- and 44-Across?) — theme answers have "IT" running "BOTH WAYS," i.e. they contain the letter string "ITTI" (mirrored "IT"s):

Theme answers:
  • DETROIT TIGERS (19A: Major-league team from the Motor City)
  • SIT TIGHT (29A: "Hold your horses!")
  • SPLIT TICKET (36A: Ballot for candidates of more than one party)
  • WAIT TIME (44A: Number of minutes on hold before getting a customer representative)
Word of the Day: GNP (10A: Fig. of total economic output) —
The gross national income (GNI), previously known as gross national product (GNP), is the total domestic and foreign output claimed by residents of a country, consisting of gross domestic product (GDP), plus factor incomes earned by foreign residents, minus income earned in the domestic economy by nonresidents (Todaro & Smith, 2011: 44).Comparing GNI to GDP shows the degree to which a nation's GDP represents domestic or international activity. GNI has gradually replaced GNP in international statistics. While being conceptually identical, it is calculated differently. GNI is the basis of calculation of the largest part of contributions to the budget of the European Union. In February 2017, Ireland's GDP became so distorted from the base erosion and profit shifting ("BEPS") tax planning tools of U.S. multinationals, that the Central Bank of Ireland replaced Irish GDP with a new metric, Irish Modified GNI*. In 2017, Irish GDP was 162% of Irish Modified GNI*. (wikipedia) (emph. mine)
• • •

Yeah, you know what, this actually works. I'm slightly distracted by the four answers that have "IT" just the one way (WIT TIM KEITH ELITE), but that's just because I have ridiculously high elegance standards (i.e. in this puzzle I want "IT" and "TI" to appear *exclusively* in the themers ... just seems ideal, somehow). But I really like that these answers don't just have "IT" both ways, but have "IT" palindromically, split (!) across two words each time. Also, the DETROIT TIGERS are my team, which has been a miserable experience for the better part of the last decade, thanks for asking, but still I enjoyed seeing them here. Wish the clue had somehow been more Tigers-specific, but I'll take what I can get. Anyway, themewise, I thought this was a very clever revealer, and the execution of the theme was very tight. No iffy or ragged answers, and a real "nailed-it" (!!) consistency across the board. 

[wait ... Lou ... Lou Piniella??]

So according to wikipedia, GNP is a dated term. It's GNI now (so, crossword constructors—go nuts!). I am dinging the puzzle for this error (that is, for not cluing GNP as erstwhile). But I didn't know. I didn't know about the terminology change. Never heard of GNI. In fact, I clearly don't know the difference between GNP and GDP, which is the answer that I wrote into the grid at first. But even if GNP were a current term, I still think you yank it from that corner. GNP / NEV isn't doing you any favors. There are cleaner ways to go. Other things that slowed me down a bit: ODELL (because I really really misunderstood "Pro Bowler") (20D: Three-time Pro Bowler ___ Beckham Jr.); SETTE (because Italian numbers, blargh; I went with the wrong language: SIETE) (29D: Italian for "seven"); TEASE (because I didn't catch the "trailers" part of the clue and instead read [What good movies do]) (45D: What good movie trailers do); and SASSON (because I just forgot my '80s jeans brands ... I remember Gloria Vanderbilt and Chemin de Fer being big-deal girl jeans ... but SASSON, I forgot) (50D: Jeans brand popular in the 1980s). Otherwise, a pretty typically easy Monday puzzle, this was. 

Signed, Rex Parker, King of CrossWorld 

[Follow Rex Parker on Twitter and Facebook]

108 comments:

Anoa Bob 12:08 AM  

Forty six black squares?! I feel SLIGHTED. ANYONE else?

Joaquin 12:10 AM  

Great Monday (leaning towards Tuesday) puzzle! I can't remember another Monday where the theme was so cleverly buried and provided such a nice "aha" when revealed.

jae 12:45 AM  

Easy-medium. Pretty smooth and clever, made me smile, liked it.

Here is what John said about the other IT/TIs at Xwordinfo:

“Oh, one more thing, I also tried a version of the fill that eliminated all other IT or TI bigrams (like ELITE at 6-down and KEITH at 39-down and WIT at 42-across); it was a thought, but it made the fill too rough. Enjoy your Monday!”

albatross shell 1:06 AM  

Yeah I am sure Lewis and the Michigan contingent will love it. And Rex and many others will feel it is
fill-in-the-blanks easy and the conceit behind the puzzle stale and simple-minded. But I was stuck. Could not figure it out at all. No mater how I would twist it would just... seem meaningless: It had me coming and going. BOTH WAYS.

So yes, you may conclude I enjoyed it, and it was easy and simple. A basic Monday.

bocamp 1:35 AM  

Before retiring for the night, my thanks to @ John for the easy, breezy Monday puzzle. ๐Ÿ’จ And, thanks to @ Rex for the upbeat write-up and the Lou Piniella Sassoon vid. ๐ŸŽฅ

Seeing Piniella brought back memories of taking my grade 8 alternative school students from Vancouver to Seattle to watch Mariner games in the late '70s and '80s. We'd get to the Kingdome early in order to snag batting practice home runs in the left field stands. Always came home with at least one ball. Great memories! ⚾️

Speaking of baseball, one of my fondest memories was as a 5-8 yr. old, waiting on the porch in the late afternoons during baseball season with the Oregonian opened to the sport's page, waiting for Dad to get home from work; he taught me all about how to decipher the stats for the Yankees games. My favorite players in the early 50s were Phil Rizzuto and Johnny Mize.

Continuing on with the baseball theme the 1968 World Series will always stand out to me. Detroit was matched up with St. Louis and my fellow Portlander, Mickey Lolich, was smokin'. He had to be on top of his game, because Bob Gibson of the Cards was also on fire. What a series! I was living in Haarlem, Holland
at the time and was able to catch some of the games on the radio in my flat. Mickey ended up with 3 wins in the 7 game series and was named MVP. It was sad for Gibson, because he had pitched three complete games, winning games 1 and 4 and losing to Lolich in game 7. ⚾️ ⚾️

Off to bed to have some sweet baseball dreams. ๐Ÿ™๐Ÿ˜ด⚾️⚾️⚾️

Peace ๐Ÿ•Š

JD 2:38 AM  

Hey! Waiiittt a minute here. Teaser Trailer Tease? Guzzetta Has it Both Ways close together.

And Fermi in two puzzles so close together? Like to imagine his reaction to Unpile. What's this mess? Somebody unpile it (that's a bad physics joke son).

We had Detroit with the Pistons last week and now the Tigers.

Deja vu all over again.

Wish we'd had Bird clued as Larry so I could relive my all time favorite moment in sports. Celtics down by one to Detroit game 5 of the '87 East finals, seconds left on the clock when Bird steals an inbound pass from Isiah Thomas and fires it to Dennis Johnson for the win. Oh sweet justice.

chefwen 2:55 AM  

Another easy Monday, but I had to have another 2 x 4 upside the head moment for the reveal. Kept staring at DETROIT TIGERS wondering what that had to do with BOTH WAYS, never looked at the ITTI. Doh, I get it, I can be so obtuse at times, after that, all I could see was ITTI’s all over the place. Color me red.

Frantic Sloth 3:18 AM  

Nice theme with a great revealer in the right place. I love when that happens.

Also loved seeing "Nevertheless, SHE persisted" especially since the fill seemed pretty basic. But nothing stinky, so that's a win in my book.

Speaking of black squares (hi, @Anoa!), does anyone remember a puzzle from several (many?) years ago which boasted having a ridiculously low number of them? I don't remember the exact count, but I believe it was somewhere between 14 and 18.
I'm interested in doing it again, but don't know an efficient method for finding it and hope some kind soul here has a suggestion.
(No, not that suggestion. Get your mind outta the gutter.)

Thanks in advance.

๐Ÿง 
๐ŸŽ‰๐ŸŽ‰๐ŸŽ‰

Hungry Mother 6:05 AM  

PR today. It just flowed, maybe a good sleep last night helped. The bowler was unknown, but the rest were easy. No complaints.

Lewis 6:13 AM  

@frantic -- Got this from xwordinfo.com. FEWEST blocks -- 17, 7/27/12 (Joe Krozel, who loves to push the envelope). MOST blocks -- 58, 3/13/20 (Alex Eaton-Salners, this was the one where the grid looked like a panda face).

ChuckD 6:14 AM  

Not a lot wrong here - elegant and tight theme and the fill was fine. Nothing really popped so the solve was more methodic than enjoyable. The themers worked but were pretty boring - SPLIT TICKET was tops for me. @Anoa Bob is right - low word count - the grid has too much black which results in a bunch of medium length fill that is so-so. The center verticals of SETTE, ICI and TOCK are especially bad and right in the solvers face. Doubling up on Carson City today - and RENO again without Janet this time.

Well constructed and tight but no sparkle. Fine for Monday.

Lewis 6:23 AM  

Tight theme? You bet. Each theme answer with two words, IT ending the first word, and TI starting the second. It's remarkable that John found a theme answer set (including reveal) that worked symmetrically, and bravo on that! Not only that, there was a nice click at seeing the clever and pitch perfect reveal.

Then there was WIT next to the wise OWL, and the lovely OPIE / ENVY / KIWI / TONI / FERMI, with cousin ICI.

I don't know why, but I started free associating, using some answers, and came up with the following (and you may have to be a certain age to see the connection between the first two): SASSON / Ooh la la / ICI / here / hear / RADIO / active / exhausted / pants / SASSON.

A quick and smile-producing solve, plus some extra curricular brain play -- a surfeit of pleasure on a Monday. Thank you and good one, John!

kitshef 7:17 AM  

I remember SASSONs, but I always assumed the were made by Vidal Sassoon and just pronounced funny. I was very wrong ... Sassoon even sued SASSON over the name before settling.

So at least I learned something.

Tight theme, but lordy was this easy.

SouthsideJohnny 7:19 AM  

Wow, after yesterday (my first unassisted Sunday completion) I came back with a personal best time for today (two and a half Rex’s, which is rarified air that I am not accustomed to) . . . And a question after reading yesterday’s comments - what is a “ ****SB ALERT****” and what do SB and QB refer to ?

pabloinnh 7:33 AM  

Into the Excellent Mondays column goes this one. Tight theme and no clue to what it might be until the revealer, which is, as @Frantic points out, properly placed. I could have gone back to the themers and not deduced the theme, which is the way I like it.

OTOH, having only one huh? moment (SASSON) in a whole puzzle gave me the feeling of standing in a field of M&A's moo-cows. I mean, "Frozen H2O", "Two-edged___", "One who gives a hoot", and I could go on. I know it's Monday but it is still the NYT, is it not? Maybe one mogul in the bunny slope would have made it a little more interesting.

Anyway, fun solve, for which thanks JG. Your stuff is always top shelf.

amyyanni 8:01 AM  

Just the right thing to start the week. The Tigers were my 1st team, but Dick McAuliffe was the 2nd baseman. Is the theme related to having your cake and eating it too?

Anonymous 8:07 AM  

Check out the lists of unique puzzles here I believe I have solved the puzzle you’re referencing! https://www.xwordinfo.com/

Anonymous 8:11 AM  

Easy easy easy.....but I have a constant and continued question. Why are there so many names and so many foreign words in X-word puzzles? They are clued so easily it would like a clue of 4 with an answer of 'four'. However, you have to know the foreign language for these clues. So if known they are the easiest if easy, if you do not....Natick. Where is the fun or reward of this? (Same goes for names....if known they are a LOCK, 100% certainty, if not....good luck knowing that Yzerman is actually someone's last name).
My point is this....aren't x-words suppose to be a type of riddle or solvable puzzle? If I think hard enough and ponder long enough I can solve it. With names and foreign words this is not possible. It becomes a matter of known/unknown random trivia with no way to solve.
If I want to play Jeopardy I will tune in each night at 7:30 and watch Trebek and the gang.
Today....7 names, 4 foreign words.

All that said, I found today's puzzle very easy even for a Monday. But that's OK. Nothing wrong with an easy start to the week!

57stratocaster 8:22 AM  

Baseball team that traded/squandered away 15 or 20 eventual Sy Young or MVPs in the last ten years? That's right..."Go get 'em, Tigers!"

Fine, fun Monday.

pmdm 8:25 AM  

Anon 8:11 AM: Try constructing puzzles without names and foreign words. After doing that for some time, you should be able to answer your question yourself. Doesn't make it any less irritating.

Miriam 8:26 AM  

I am a native Detroiter and life long Tiger fan who now lives in NYC and am surrounded by NY Yankees fans. I was delighted to see the Detroit Tiger clue in ticay’s puzzle and also happy to see that we both root for the same team. Go Tigers!

Lewis 8:34 AM  

My five favorite clues from last week
(in order of appearance):

1. Bobs and weaves (3)
2. Something that might be sacrificed at the altar (6)(4)
3. Flash setting (2)(6)
4. Think of together (9)
5. Unfilled spaces (8)


DOS
MAIDEN NAME
DC COMICS
ASSOCIATE
CAVITIES

David Fabish 8:39 AM  

As someone trained in economics, I have never seen GNI used anywhere, although to be fair, economists have generally moved away from GNP to GDP, a slightly different measure the differences of which I won't bore you fine people with.

Overall, a pleasant, quick Monday solve! I hope the rest of the week is the same.

Nancy 8:44 AM  

I can't remember having this much fun on a Monday, ever! (But as you know, I have no memory, so if I've SLIGHTED ANYONE who also created a terrific Monday, please forgive me.)

Speaking as someone who's dreamed up puzzle themes from time to time, this is one that will make you levitate out of bed -- assuming that's where you were when you first dreamed up the revealer --shouting "That's IT!!!! Yes, yes, yes!!!" I'll bet that's what you felt, isn't it, John Guzzetta? And then the challenge of coming up with the themers -- all really good and very different. I must admit to a twinge of ENVY, wishing I'd thought up the theme myself.

Nor was it all that easy to SOLVE. Am I the only person in the world who didn't know that a WASP builds a paper nest? My first thought was "worm", until I slapped my own wrist and said: "That's silk, you dummy!

Geoff B 8:54 AM  

The Tigers are my team as well, I was a little young to remember the 84 team but I do remember Allen Trammel. Anyways, I’m kinda new and solved this puzzle in 9:24 seconds - a personal best for me without help.

Anonymous 9:28 AM  

Crosswords aren't constructed for the least common denominator- you. Keep solving, don't be afraid to use reference materials, you may just learn something. Also, life may be easier (for everyone) if you're less afraid of the "foreign". Enjoy!

Pamela 9:36 AM  

Nice Monday offering, nothing flashy, but pleasant to solve. Hated that the first themer was sports, thinking the whole puzzle would be spoiled in that direction, but it was easy enough to get with the crosses and soon I realized that my fears were unwarranted. I saw the ITTI before long, but didn’t know what it meant until the revealer revealed. I liked seeing RIFE, WORDIS, GUNSIGHT, they seem fresh.

*****SB ALERT*****

@SouthaideJohnny- Spelling Bee is a NYT daily word game. There are 7 letters in a hive, and you have to find as many words as possible from those letters, all containing the one center letter. Points are accumulated during the solve, and they lead to proficiency levels from Beginner up to Amazing, Genius, and Queen Bee if you get all possible words. Careful, if you start you might get hooked!

https://www.nytimes.com/puzzles/spelling-bee

Z 9:43 AM  

Pretty much what Rex said, that “yeah, it does work” reaction. I’ll take a minor dip in elegance over an increase in dreck any day, so I support the decision to let the other IT/TI’s slide.

I do disagree just a wee bit with Rex on the current DETROIT TIGERS I went into this faux season thinking 20-40 would be their ceiling. Instead they have been playing above .500 ball against everyone except the White Sox, a talented young rebuilding team. They have a few young pitchers that look promising, some young bats that seem to be developing, and Miggy chasing down milestones. They still have some holes (pitching staffs need more than four or five good arms) but the next few years could be interesting in the AL Central.

@bocamp - Mickey Lolich is the best lefty of my lifetime for that ‘68 World Series alone. I felt bad that Mad Bum (who I don’t like on principle) was denied the opportunity to match Lolich’s feat of 3 complete game World Series wins. That bringing him in as a reliever bit was just wrong. I understand not letting him finish game 1, so his failure to match Lolich isn’t entirely his fault. Still, all you SF Giant fans, Mad Bum is a distant 2nd to Lolich.

****Word Discussion that Nobody Else Cares About Alert****
@TTrimble - I’m just fascinated by this. To be clear, your understanding of the word is the one that is listed first in every dictionary I’ve looked at. But here’s American Heritage’s second definition:
To absorb (something) into or cause (something) to be overshadowed by something else: ”The moment's regret was subsumed in the needs of the next moment" (Diana Gabaldon).

For me the key indicator of which meaning is intended is the following preposition, subsumed in (your meaning) versus subsumed by (my meaning). But that might just be me.

RooMonster 9:49 AM  

Hey All !
Kudos on the themers, IT and TI for the other IT, all back to back. Consistency is always welcome. And an apt Revealer to tie it all up in a nice bow.

Nits... ๐Ÿ˜‹ @Anoa Bob beat me to it (well, beat everyone to it, as his was the first post), 46 black squares. Normal max is 38, so 8 more. That's rather high. Will has the final say, as always, and in his submission guidelines, it says it's at his discretion to decide if extra blocks are warranted/needed/acceptable. So I'll give this high block count a pass (as if my approval means anything at all). When you get an 11, or even 13 Center themer, nine out of ten times you end up with the three-block swath above/below it. Constructing pitfall.

On that note, @Anon 8:11, constructors don't start out actively wanting names or foreign words, or RRNs, or ONOs, OREOs, etc., but sometimes you need these for coherent fill. Otherwise you'd be complaining about non-words. Not being a dick towards you, just trying to explain. ☺️

Si, a nice theme. Surprised Rex didn't lose his mind about GUN SIGHT. Maybe if Bruce Haight constructed this...

Four F's
ANYONE? Bueller
RooMonster
DarrinV

Whatsername 10:04 AM  

A pretty basic and easy Monday but maybe a little on the tough side for a beginner. I’m thinking of the one themer SIT TIGHT with three foreign clues which seemed unusual but not impossible. I liked the theme, quite clever and as @Nancy said, wish I’d thought of it.

Fully expected a raging Rex rant on GUN SIGHTS, but apparently his usual rancor was tempered by his joy over the mention of his baseball team. Let us all give thanks.

jberg 10:10 AM  

So proud of myself for noticing the theme while still solving —I don’t usually —after which I tried, unsuccessfully, to guess the revealer. Very neat

Nice mini-theme of things said to be green.

Glen Laker 10:17 AM  

Thanks for the unexpected laugh, although I almost spit out my coffee. Odell Beckham Jr is a Pro Bowl wide receiver for the Cleveland Browns (i.e., he’s a football player), not a professional bowler.

mathgent 10:20 AM  

I liked the theme, which is revealed neatly at 55 across.

Six red plus signs in the margins, above average for a Monday.

RENO is a Mecca no more. Virginia, the main street running through the heart of town, was once three deep with people carrying their drinks from casino to casino. Last time I was there, pre-Pandemic, it was eerily and rather frighteningly empty. Indian casinos in California.

KEITH Urban. How could the divine Nicole Kidman fall for that guy?

I love Lewis. “A surfeit of pleasure.” I envision his pleasure cup running over.

Anonymous 10:21 AM  

Steve Carlton, Warren Spahn and Randy Johnson are all better than Lolich. And all within your lifetime Z

Glen Laker 10:22 AM  

SB is Spelling Bee, a game in the NYT. Don’t start playing unless you don’t mind getting hooked. QB stands for Queen Bee; it’s the ranking you achieve once you’ve completely solved the game.

Anonymous 10:32 AM  

dNA or RNA?
GdP or GNP?
elvES or AIDES?
HAveITBOTHWAYS or HASITBOTHWAYS?

as to OFL's obsession with the Tigers - how could you be such a traitor to your tribe??? Thomas Magnum is a vociferous Tiger's fan, and the real one (I've never watched the latter day version), Tom Selleck, is a notorious MAGA-ite. for shame.

What? 10:50 AM  

No. Who cares? 38 is a made up rule anyway.

chance2travel 10:50 AM  

Quite enjoyable Monday. Anyone else reminded of the video sharing app Tik-Tok at 31D? "Tick" TOCK

I always enjoy me some SETTE and FERMI, but can't say i love IOTAS

GILL I. 10:51 AM  

I don't want to create a panic, OPIE....after all, a BIRD in the hand is worth two in the bush. ITTI is something we will cure in no time.....Tick TOCK, tick TOCK. Just SIT TIGHT and EAT your KIWI like a good little WASP.
A Monday with lots of FUEL. For some reason, and it has no reason, I want to sing: SHE wore an itsy bitsy teenie weenie......Maybe it was seeing SASSON? Talk about over-priced jeans.
WAIT TIME seems endless. I'm counting the days I can see a yellow sun and a blue ski.
46 black squares and counting.......

What? 11:32 AM  

Who can forget the 84 Series? Not me. The Tigers started the season 35 and 5 and the coasted to the pennant, leading from game 1. Leading 3 games to 1 in Series, the fifth game featured Goose Gossage deciding, against his manager’s wish, to pitch to Kirk Gibson (former MSU footballer) in the bottom of the eight with one out and runners on second and third. Gossage was known for his overpowering fastball. Gibson promptly deposited a fast ball in the upper deck. Soon the Series was over, with Willie Hernandez, with the world’s best screwball, mopping up.
This could have been the start of a dynasty but the team was sold to Tom Monaghan, head of Dominoes Pizza. He gave control to his son who promptly complained the players were paid too much and then fired Gates Brown, the pitching coach ( the 84 Tiger’s hitters tore up the league) for asking for raise from his $80,000 salary. Last time I ate a Dominos pizza.

egsforbreakfast 11:41 AM  

I’m a big fan of noticing common word usage that can be reworked into clever theming, so I congratulate John Guzetta on a nice Monday theme, even with the 46 blocks. Let’s drink APOP APIECE to this nice bit of craftsmanship.

Crimson Devil 11:49 AM  

Econ person as well: Never heard of GNI. GNP and more recent GDP, yes.
Good to see SAT; will refrain from reiterating earlier comment re “Joe”, per niece Alice and Sis-Judge.
Great to see comments re Hondo and Lolich, who won 3rd Series game, v Bob Gibson no less, on short rest. Gibson was a primary reason for MLB’s lowering mound.

What? 11:50 AM  

Yes. You native New Yorkers have never had the pleasure of a home in the suburbs where wasps routinely build paper nests in eaves. Who says suburbs are boring?
๐ŸฆŸ

Richardf8 11:54 AM  

Came here expecting a tirade about GUN SIGHT, left disappointed.

Masked and Anonymous 11:55 AM  

The revealer was 13 long. If U (as a constructioneer) want the revealer to come last, that means U have to splatz it into the puzgrid [technical phrase] no lower than row #12. This tends to scrunch all the theme material real close to one another, and desperation can ensue. Desperation may often evoke the "cheater squares" squad of extra black squares.

Then, as @Roo points out, if U want an 11-long themer in the central #8 row [M&A'd want a 15-long one there], more puzgrid compromises may ensue, especially along the lines of extra black squares, to cordon off the Down columns, along the puzgrid sides.

Ett … viola! Lotsa black squares. Constructioneer notes at xwordinfo.chen mentions this dilemma. Great theme revealer, tho. Definitely worth makin a MonPuz about.

staff weeject pick: One-way tiny TIM.

fave moo-cow eazy-E MonPuz clue: {SiriusXM medium} = RADIO. These guys tend to get awful expensive, if U let em renew U automatically off yer credit card. Fortunately, my old card had expired, so they had to come beggin. When I said they'd become way ridiculously highcost, they decided well maybe they could charge us a lot less. But, I digress.

fave sparklers: The Ight Club trio: GUNSIGHT, SITTIGHT, SLIGHTED.

fave 15-long themer replacement for row #8: SPITTINGBULLETS. Or maybe WAITTILNEXTYEAR (yo, @DetroitTigers).

Thanx for the ITTI-bits of fun, Mr. Guzzetta.

Masked & Anonymo1U


**gruntz**

CDilly52 12:07 PM  

What fun for a Monday! I rarely agree completely with OFL, but never say never. Including the DETROIT TIGERS, I think Mr. Guzzetta created an absolutely Perfect Monday puzzle.

JD 12:36 PM  

@Gill, Thank you! It's so important not to cause a panic. People can do all kinds of things like trying not to breathe in each other's faces. Utter havoc would ensue (udder havoc if the cows started stressing).

Z 12:50 PM  

@Anon10:21 - Remind me, again, of the World Series where Spahn, Carlton, or Johnson pitched three complete game victories. Oh, that's right, you can't because they didn't.⚾️⚾️⚾️

@mathgent - I read somewhere that KEITH Urban admitted to "marrying up." Of course, I can't think of a single male for whom that wouldn't be true.

GNP/GDP/GNI - Investopedia's definition mirrors what I remember learning. If Investopedia is to be believed, GNI is something different. If I can oversimplify, GNP is what a country makes where it's citizens own the means of production (so a Ford plant in Ontario is part of the US GNP), GDP is what is made within a country (so a Toyota plant in Indiana is part of US GDP) while GNI is how much money all the people and businesses make. In as much as "income"="production" I guess GNP=GNI. I have this funny feeling, though, that some of the economists among us can go on at length on how money ≠ production.

Anonymous 12:57 PM  

Z,what you wrote obviously isnt what you meant to write.
You wrote that Lolich's 68 series is sufficient to make him the greates lefty in your time. That inst the case.In fact, before you wrote it, I;ve never hear that claim. Everybody agrees that the three lefties I named are worlds better than Lolich. His achievement in that series doesn't undo the rest of his career regardless of how dear you hold it.

Also, Christy Matthewson's 05 Series was better than Lolich's. ( I mean, who the Heck cares where you fit into the equation. Your lifetime is a silly and self-centered distinction)

Teedmn 12:57 PM  

While solving, I noticed the double Ts in the theme answers but failed to see the bracketing Is. When I got the reveal, I thought it was very WITTI.

A super easy SOLVE, a personal time record, I'm pretty sure, so I liked IT a lot. Thanks, John Guzzetta!

Crimson Devil 12:58 PM  

Gill and JD, yeah, wouldn’t want to sound alarm ‘cause of dead canary in coal mine; wouldn’t wanna cause miners to panic.

Frantic Sloth 1:05 PM  

@Lewis 613am Once again, you come through - thank you, kind sir! Of course, had I a brain to call my very own, Xwordinfo.com would have given me the chopped liver query. Sheesh. ๐Ÿ™„

It was interesting to do the puzzle, read Rex's write-up and the comments made by some still here today - even @LMS, who is where now?*

(Extra bonus: @Z actually said and adhered to "three and out." Even more amazing, but not unrelated, was the fact that nobody kept pecking at him either. Hmmmm.)


* The people need, nay demand (in the most gentle and respectful way known) an explanation!
If we could be assured that she and those she cares about are okay - that would be enough. None of our beeswax, but enough.
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Ferris B 1:05 PM  

Don't ask me. I'm not here.

Frantic Sloth 1:11 PM  


@Z 1250pm "I read somewhere that KEITH Urban admitted to "marrying up." Of course, I can't think of a single male for whom that wouldn't be true."
How true. Also, you're quite the panderhandler. ๐Ÿ˜‰

Investopedia. Feeling "less than" because I don't have a pedia. ๐Ÿ˜ข

Swagomatic 1:28 PM  

I liked the puzz okay, but I had a typo that took me 5 minutes to find. I had to scroll through the full set of clues twice. I Had GDP confidently filled in, and somehow forgot that Carson City is not in DEVada.

JC66 1:38 PM  

****SB ALERT****

@Barbara S

I still do it daily, but usually don't comment.



****SPOILER****



I'm curious why RAITA was OK yesterday, but RIATA wasn't (but LARIAT was).

albatross shell 1:44 PM  

Since nobody has mentioned (or perhaps not found it worth mentioning) what I was doing in my first post (104 am), I have decided to humiliate myself by explaining my own attempt at humor. But maybe you all noticed anyway. I was not confused by the theme at all. All hooey. I do not sit at hoME EMbedding jokes in posts for no reason. That would just... seEM MEaningless. That would have ME both coming and going, and going and coming. Besides I intended it it as an appreciation of the puzzle. I did want folks to notice.

Whatsername 2:06 PM  

@Frantic (3:18)/@Lewis (6:13) I just printed the 7/27/12 puzzle. Undeniably a unique grid. It's a Friday and looks like great fun. Thanks Lewis for taking the time to unearth that one.

Is it just me or is WAIT TIME becoming more and more the norm these days? I feel like businesses don't really want to serve their customers any more. The good ones at least let you leave a message so you can wait hours for a call back, and the worst ones just send you into an endless menu loop of robots from hell. Or more likely, they refer you to some web site so you can spend your time researching the problem they should have already fixed. "Your call is important to us but we can't be bothered with you, so visit our web site at www.goawaysucker.com." ๐Ÿคฌ

KnittyContessa 2:34 PM  

Any puzzle that includes SASSON jeans is a winner in my book. 1Does anyone else remember the SASSON TV commercial featuring the NY Rangers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UilzHNm95Qg


JD 2:41 PM  

@Albatross, Aha! It doesn't help that I post at night and read the first comments when my brain is barely opened for business. But yes, funny! I see it now. The best I ever hope for in my own commenting is that I made myself laugh by typing something that you had to be there (in my brain) to get. Like Fermi, Chicago Pile 1, and a 2-week-old puzzle answer (I'm still laughing).

Joaquin 2:51 PM  

@Whatsername (2:06) - Re: WAITTIME
This morning I called the DMV to enquire about the plates I ordered. When I finally got into the "real person" queue, I was told my wait time was 1 hour and 36 minutes! Hard pass.

Barbara S. 2:57 PM  

A Story for and Inspired by @albatross shell 1:06 am/1:44 pm [because great minds oughta stick together].

I guess I haven't been taking enough RESTS, and I got a bit tired. I decided I needed some FUEL, so I opened the biscuit tin to get out an OREo and then poured a fruit tisane. Hmm, not enough. What can I filch? I think I'll sneak some illicit tiramisu! Yum.

Barbara S. 3:25 PM  

****SB ALERT****
@JC66 1:38
I'm glad you're still in the land of SB. And thanks for mentioning the word they wouldn't accept yesterday. A little frustrated rage against the SB does wonders for clearing the sinuses, I find. (Fall allergies have set in.) There's a rejected word in today's SB about which I'm absolutely spitting tintacks! But I can't mention it now because it will spoil something else. People ask why we do the SB when we spend so much time disagreeing with their word choices. Righteous indignation is so bracing!

Unknown 3:35 PM  

as I was going along, I thought this was way too easy, even for a Monday, & I rarely complain about the difficulty level of a given puzzle. But then I got to the revealer & found that I loved it, and that totally made up for the easiness of the fill.

I did think that rex would *hate* this puzzle for skewing, in his mind, excessively "male": i.e., lots of science clues, GUNSIGHTS, OPIE, but I guess if you put in his beloved baseball team, then all sins are forgiven (or not even noticed!).

JC66 4:25 PM  

****SB ALERT****

@bocamp & @Lynnatny (from late yesterday)

QB (Queen Bee) is when you get all the acceptable words.

When you reach genius, you're about 70% there.

You can go to nybee.com to see how many words/points are needed for Genius & QB as well as other info if you want hints (# of words by length, words not accepted, etc).

bocamp 4:32 PM  

****Word Discussion that Nobody Else Cares About Alert****

@Z 9:43 AM / @@TTrimble

I care: 1) it's related to previous puzzles' inclusions of GoT related clues and answers and 2) because I "love" the words: "subsume" and "subsumption."

In a literal sense, there's great potential depth to the word, i.e., something being "subsumed" could either lie just under the surface, or it could have fallen into the abyss. In the case of the initially "panned" GoT, the weight of the media hype eventually buried the reviews in a very "deep" place. The same could be said of the initial responses/predictions related to the introduction of the original iPad.

I love the synonyms and related words for "subsume" in the Cambridge Dictionary. This is truly and "power" word.

An aside: driving back from Kelowna to Vancouver in 2010, sitting shotgun, I was doing a crossword on my iPod touch and wishing there was an Apple device two or three times larger to accommodate my fat fingers. My ex wondered what it would be good for, other than doing puzzles. I did some brainstorming and came up with a lengthly list of uses that I, personally, would see as beneficial. Well, believe it or not, Apple serendipitously announced the iPad no more than a week or two afterwards. I just love coincidences, and this is one of the really good ones; swear on my honor, cross my heart! ๐Ÿค“

So, yes, I really do care about this thread; it's relevant! ๐Ÿ‘

El amor todo lo puede ๐Ÿ•Š

RooMonster 4:38 PM  

Piling on to the
**SB stuff** (sorry, non SB-ers) ๐Ÿ˜€

@JC66 4:25 had a mis-type. It is nytbee.com where the info's at. (Ha, how's that for proper English?) A quick glance in the NE-ish corner of that site will get you the word count and points needed for Queen Bee (QB, or in my case, just Q). It also will tell you how many words are in it by length. Just scroll down a bit. Careful, though! If you run the mouse cursor over the Length of Word bar, all the words will pop up. If you keep scrolling, it'll give you words non accepted, and a list of words often seen in SB.

What I do, is when I get to Genius, I take that number (say 80 points) and divide it by .7
That gives you the approximate (close enough) points you need for Q.
Anybody sick of this yet? ๐Ÿ˜‹ (At least the non SB-ers won't read this! Maybe...)

RooMonster TMI Guy

bocamp 4:39 PM  

****Word Discussion that Nobody Else Cares About Alert****

6 brutally negative reviews critics gave 'Game of Thrones' when it first came out. As Yoda would say: "subsumed" they were! ๐Ÿ˜‰

El amor todo lo puede ๐Ÿ•Š

bocamp 4:42 PM  


Centerfield by John Fogerty

El amor todo lo puede ๐Ÿ•Š

Anonymous 4:55 PM  

@Z- In 2016, ESPN had an expert panel ranked the top 100 greatest MLB players. They also broke it into subsets one of which greatest left handed pitchers. They ranked (in reverse order)
10-Madison Bumgarner
9-Tom Glavine
8-Carl Hubbell
7-Whitey Ford
6-Lefty Grove
5-Steve Carlton
4-Warren Spahn
3-Clayton Kershaw
2-Randy Johnson
Drum Roll....
1.Sandy Koufax
Mickey LOL is not on the list . He’s not even the Hall of Fame. With a career regular season ERA 3,44 and Winning Percentage.532. it is not surprising. Nice try though and thanks for the laugh.

bigsteve46 5:07 PM  

Re. baseball commenter and Bob Gibson: Bob Gibson had 8 complete games in his three World Series alone - and in the one incomplete game, he pitched 8 innings, which he "atoned" for by pitching 10 innings in another game.

Jacob DeGrom, perhaps on his way to a third Cy Young Award has three complete games in his career! He shouldn't get a fourth Cy Young until he at least pitches a fourth complete game. (And I'm a long-time Met fan: DeGrom is a fine pitcher and probably entitled to his awards - but ... he's no Gibson (3 World Series, 9 starts, 81 innings, 2 complete-game 7th game wins!)

Anonymous 5:22 PM  

Anon 4:55

Left Grove was the greatest lefty of all time. By a bunch. Koufax of course is interesting. So dominant but for such a very short period. From `55 to `61 he wasn't much. in 1962 he did win the first of his five consecutive ERA crowns ( I believe he won the strikeout crown in 61, but his other numbers were not good), but it's his unreal run from 1963 through '65 that make Koufax a legend. But longevity counts. He pitched fewer than 400 games in his entire career. That's just not enough to compete with Grove and Carlton and Spahn in my opinion. And the opinion of many sportswriters. Take ESPN polls like the one you cite with a grain of salt. Remember, they have to put pieces on TV. And Lefty grove aint got no footage. Hubbell either (and many folks in the first half f the century picke d King Carl as the one man they'd want on the hill for a must-win game.) Point is, Koufax has just enough TV/ and home movie footage to make a viable piece and he has the patina of exoticism given his era. Back farther than the vast majority of the ESPN viewership, but not antediluvian like Grove, and Hubbel. Even Spahn kind of.
Lolich was ok. I believe he retired as the all-time lefty leader in strikeouts. Maybe. Someone will correct me if I;m wrong. But I seem to believe Carlton passing him for the crown while he was gunning for Walter Johnson's all-time record ( now since passed by a few).

Anonymous 5:35 PM  

Big Steve,
Gibson was probably the third best pitcher of the 60s behind Marichal and Koufax, Sudden Sam McDowell should get some play too.

No need to compare complete game numbers. As you know, it's a vastly different era. maybe even game. But if you persist, I'll trot out The Big Train. Johnson had 110 career Shutouts. Shutouts. A complete game? Ho-hum. 531. Gibson had less than half that many (255) and about half as many shutouts (56)

JC66 5:41 PM  


Back in the day, I was a NY Giants fan, so my favorite pitcher was Ralph Branca (who happened to be from my home town, Mt. Vernon, NY).

bocamp 6:23 PM  

@ JC66 4:25 PM – Mea culpa ๐Ÿ˜” I "ass/u/me d" when the "Bee" popped up, that's where the QB tag came from. Good grief, it takes enough time just to get to the "Bee", let alone to discover every possible word. Boyo, my hat's off to the real "QB"s. ๐Ÿ


El amor todo lo puede ๐Ÿ•Š

bocamp 6:27 PM  

*** SB Alert ***

Oops … mea double culpa, I forgot to put *** SB Alert *** on my last post. ๐Ÿ˜”๐Ÿ˜”

El amor todo lo puede ๐Ÿ•Š

RooMonster 6:32 PM  

**SB again**
Har @bocamp! That first Bee pop-up is just the Genius one. There's a clickable button that says something along the lines of "Continue solving". You click that, and keep on solving. Once you've got'em all, another Bee pops up that says "Queen Bee", and then you jump around flailing your arms in a happy dance.
And here I thought you were smart! ๐Ÿ˜‹๐Ÿ˜Ž๐Ÿ˜‚

Roo

bocamp 6:33 PM  

@ Glen Laker 10:17 AM – Too funny!, I fell into the same trap as @ Rex. It immediately invoked memories of watching pro bowling (w/o the caps LOL) back in the '50s and '60s. Got to pay more attention to caps, plurals, i.e., "the fine print." ๐Ÿค”

El amor todo lo puede ๐Ÿ•Š

JC66 6:39 PM  

****SB ALERT****

@bocamp

I was going to say that that was probably your first. mistake this year, and then you go and make another. ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚

pmdm 6:44 PM  

It's Stanley Cup time. (Really) All this talk of Lolich.

It's tough to compare different players. But only one got voted into the HOF unanimously. For what it's worth.

For hockey fans, the debates sometimes boils down to this: who was the greatest player: Bobby Orr or Wayne Gretzky? Having watched both, I would unhesitatingly say Orr. Most people who disagree tend to be too young to have watch him play live. Or so it seems to me.

For what it's worth.

bocamp 7:03 PM  

*** SB Alert ***

@ JC66 6:39 PM – ha ha ๐Ÿ˜‚ I'm just a work in progress ๐Ÿ™ and @ RooMonster 6:32 PM – I told you I wasn't anywhere near being a Mensan; just a "wanna-bee," "drone-bee." ๐Ÿ But, I think anyone who can come up with every single word possible is "skookum to the max," and much closer to "Mensan" that I. ๐Ÿ‘ And, as Ratso said, "hey I'm progressin' here!" ๐Ÿ˜Š

El amor todo lo puede ๐Ÿ•Š

Sports Fan 7:08 PM  

GOAT in the major sports:
Baseball: Babe Ruth
Basketball : Michael Jordan
Football: Jim Brown
Golf: Tiger Woods
Hockey: Wayne Gretzky
Lacrosse: Jon Reese
Soccer: Pelรฉ
Tennis: Roger Federer

Anonymous 7:30 PM  

JC66,
I see what you did there. Most excellent.
For a long time, maybe still, the guy who did that thing that Branca was involved with was the all-time leader in HRs born in Scotland.
Also, do you know who Branch’s son-in-laws is?

bocamp 7:39 PM  

@ Sports Fan 7:08 PM – That list looks pretty good to me; I don't know much about Lacrosse (other than I bet I'd have taken to it, given the opportunity). ๐Ÿฅ I think when evaluating "best" of all time in any human category, one has to consider "over-all" careers vis-ร -vis that of those from the same era, i.e. their contemporaries. ๐Ÿ†

El amor todo lo puede ๐Ÿ•Š

JC66 8:11 PM  

@Anon 7:30

Obviously I do. When the Giants abandoned us, of course I became a Mets fan.

Anonymous 8:16 PM  

Jc.
Again excellent. I’ve read that Bobby V.was the best scholastic athlete ever in Ct. I’m a little more dubious about his claim that he invented the wrap when his restaurant ran out of bread.

JC66 8:22 PM  

@Anon 8:16

Never heard that one...interesting.

Z 8:25 PM  

*****Baseball Gasbagging Alert*****

@Anon - I concluded the BBWAA were a bunch of idiots in 1987 (George Bell MVP - pfft). As a result, the whole HoF is right up there with Best Picture Oscars and Best New Artist Grammys for meaninglessness. Piffle on all of it. I’ll stand by my initial claim, throwing three complete games, pitching well enough well to win all three, defeating Bob Gibson in game 7, that feat alone, regardless of anything else, makes Mickey Lolich the greatest lefty of my lifetime. All the strikeouts and shut-outs and wins are just interesting footnotes. I’m wondering how many of those ESPN gasbags would still include MadBum on their list and how many now think he was just a pretty good pitcher on a very good team. He didn’t merit Top 10 all time in 2016, and 2017-2019 pretty much proved it.

@bigsteve46 - I saw a Denny McClain box score where he threw 220+ pitches. Never going to happen again. Hell, a guy pitching a no hitter has been pulled from a game because he reached his pitch limit. All based on some shaky conclusions from the advanced metrics. Well, no, the conclusions are fine (fatigue has a negative impact on the next game and increases risk of injury), it’s the response that is too one size fits all. I just looked up Lolich’s career stats. Here’s what he did in 1971: 45 Starts, 376 innings pitched (that’s 8 ⅓ innings per start for 45 starts), 308 strikeouts, a WHIP of 1.14. Yowzer. Anyway, I’m right with you on DeGrom.

*****End Gasbagging*****

@Frantic Mom - “Panderhandler” ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚
@mathgent - Who married up more, KEITH or Tom?

Anonymous 8:27 PM  

Ralph Branca and Bobby Thompson dined out on “The shot heard ‘round the world” for decades. I met them at a few charity events where they signed autographs a few times. Real gentlemen. May they RIP.

Anonymous 8:31 PM  

z,
Lolich was pretty good in 71. But of course Carlton was much better in 72. And as everyone on Earth but you understands, a much better pitcher.

Anonymous 8:41 PM  

@Z - The guy was a journeyman who had one great post season. I would definitely classify him as an above average pitcher. HOF ? Not even close. On the cusp of being one of the one hundred best left handed starters of the last fifty years.

Anonymous 9:03 PM  

Lolich has a 3.44 lifetime ERA., tied for 384th all time. He was a journeyman barely above .500 winning percentage. Kind of like Gene Tenace who had an amazing World Series in 1972. I’m sure there are Oakland fans who’ve convinced themselves he’s an all time great too.

albatross shell 9:05 PM  

@sportsfan
Only watch an occasional LaCrosse game. Strikes me as a great sport though. But just on general principles and logical thinking I might be tempted to name Jim Brown GOAT there too. ???

GILL I. 9:22 PM  

Gasbagging baseballl...........zzzzzzzzzzz and please add a pfffft.
@bocamp......El amor numca deja de ser.....: Corinthian.
Peace.... and, please let the sun shine. Mamas and the Papas?

Sports Fan 9:33 PM  

@Albatross shell- Yes, many people say Jim Brown was greatest lax player ever. Played for Manhasset High School, my Alma Mater, though he was a few decades before me. Legend.

Z 9:33 PM  

****GasBag Alert*** (sorry @Gill I)

@Anon8:31 et al. - You mean everyone like Red Schoendienst and Dallas Green?

Anonymous 9:43 PM  

Z,
I don’t get the joke. Two dead guys? Look, you made a bad claim. Your zeal and fandom clearly got the better of you. We know you’re a Tigers fan. And I’m sure a loyal one. But why die on this hill? It’s not even a close call. Your recalcitrance simply makes you look ill informed.

Anonymous 9:48 PM  


Z-Why are you so impressed by Lolich’s 1971 season? Vida Blue’s was better.

bocamp 9:57 PM  

@ GILL I. 9:22 PM

Let the Sunshine in California Dreamin' Prayers for the West Coast ๐Ÿ™

El amor numca deja de ser ๐ŸŒˆ

JC66 10:04 PM  

@GILL I

I can't imagine having to deal with what you have to deal with. Thoughts & prayers.

****SB ALERT****

I threw in the towel three short of QB, and I'm glad I did. All three were unfamiliar to me.

GILL I. 10:28 PM  

@bocamp....Gracias.....But first I had to watch a lacy bra ad before you gave me a "California Dreamin'. Yeah...I can dream....
@JC...the scotch is quickly disappearing . At least it's put to good use.... :-)

bocamp 10:36 PM  

*** SB Alert ***

@ JC66 10:04 PM – I'm seven short; 2 points shy of "DB" LOL

El amor numca deja de ser ๐Ÿ•Š

jae 10:57 PM  

*****SB Alert******


@JC - I’m also stuck with 3 to go. It bugs me that one of them is a 4 letter word. I’ll give it one more look tomorrow morning.

bocamp 11:03 PM  

*** SB Alert ***

Six short of QB, but enjoyed the workout! Drone bee for mee ๐Ÿ

Night all, God Bless ๐Ÿ™

El amor numca deja de ser ❤️

kitshef 11:06 PM  

@Sportsfan:
Baseball: Babe Ruth
Basketball : Wilt Chamberlain
Football: Jerry Rice
Golf: Tiger Woods
Hockey: Wayne Gretzky
Lacrosse: N/A
Soccer: Pelรฉ
Tennis: Rod Laver

And add me to the Lefty Grove supporters for best LHP. If you want Spahn, I won't fight you because of the years he lost to the war.

Anonymous 11:18 PM  

Russ won lots more than Wilt.

Anonymous 12:02 AM  

My guess for Z’s GOAT picks:
Baseball: Ty Cobb (unless he pulls a Rex and disqualifies him for racism then Al Kaline or Hank Greenberg)
Basketball: Isiah Thomas
Football: Barry Sanders
Golf: Dan Pohl
Hockey: Mike Modano

Crimson Devil 10:04 AM  

Sports fan, et al.
Your list seems well considered, though I know nil about lax: I’ve always heard Jim Brown was the man; didn’t he occasion a rule change?
Also, I would add “athlete” to your list, and nominate Bo as GOAT. So certified by ESPN ~10 yrs ago; one of the best 30 for 30s.

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