Caesar's first stabber / TUE 1-15-19 / Women's clothing chain since 1983 / 1982 film inspired by Pong / 1701 USS Enterprise registry / Eponymous scale inventor
Constructor: Samuel A. Donaldson
Relative difficulty: Challenging (for a Tuesday) (4:19)
THEME: welcome comments at a bar — phrases indicating that someone else is paying for your drink: Theme answers:
"IT'S MY TREAT"
"DRINKS ON ME"
"I'LL GET THE BILL"
"YOUR MONEY'S / NO GOOD HERE"
Word of the Day: CHICO'S (1D: Women's clothing chain since 1983) —
Chico's is a retail women's clothing chain founded in 1983 by a three-person operation on Sanibel Island, Florida. Chico's FAS, Inc. is an American women’s clothing and accessories retailer. The company was founded by Marvin and Helene Gralnick and is headquartered in Fort Myers, Florida. Chico's FAS operates three brands: its namesake Chico's, White House Black Market and Soma. As of November 1, 2014, Chico's FAS operated 1,557 women's clothing stores in the US and Canada and sold merchandise through franchise locations in Mexico. (wikipedia)
• • •
Ouch. Very rough Tuesday. Rough as in "difficult," rough as in "ouch, I am wincing at this fill and these answers." Let's start with the theme, which is completely colloquial, and so when the phrasing isn't just right, it's grating. Feels like an alien life form has learned our language and is trying awkwardly to fit in. Actually, these aren't *that* off, but they veer sharply from the complete-sentence formal of "IT'S MY TREAT" to the where's-the-verb awkward of "DRINKS ON ME." Then there's "I'LL GET THE BILL," which ... ok one might say that, but it's not very bar-y, and like "IT'S MY TREAT" it's got that weird complete-sentence thing going on that you probably wouldn't actually here. "I GOT IT." "IT'S ON ME." "MY TREAT." I can hear these. The others have a weird formalism. Then there's the last one, YOUR MONEY'S / NO GOOD HERE, which is also the best one ... and the one total outlier, since it's the only themer that a bartender / owner would say. The other phrases are things your friends or colleagues might say. So it's all over the map as a theme. Not very tight, not very bar-specific. Also, how is the most common "welcome comment" of all not even in this grid? No ON THE HOUSE? No IT'S ON THE HOUSE? No IT IS ON THE HOUSE? The puzzle needed another answer with something drinky in it, like ROUND, and an answer with ON THE HOUSE in it. The theme as it is just clunks and lurches all over the place.
Then there's the fill / clues, which were super-hard for me, for a Tuesday. I have somehow lived almost half a century and never heard of CHICO'S. There has never been a CHICO'S anywhere I've lived. I have a sister and a mother and a wife and a daughter, so women's clothing chains aren't *entirely* unfamiliar to me, but yeah we found the giant hole in my knowledge base today, for sure. The NW was a disaster for that reason, and also because I misspelled HENNE and also because UNSNAG wtf!?!?! *And* with a "?" clue (3D: Let off the hook?). "CAN I SEE?" is a question and ["Ooh, ooh, let me look!"] is *not*, so that's fun (i.e. terrible). Don't watch that sitcom but guessed SEGAL buuuut the crosses were so weird to me that I kept taking him out when I couldn't get things to work. Pure disaster. And then when I'd go to other parts of the grid, I also couldn't get traction. Ask me about NETH, LOL, wow that is the Worst abbr., and I had NET- and still couldn't get it. My brain wouldn't allow it to exist. Up there with ICEL as Worst Euro Abbr. Wanted an *actual* wood for 28D: Wood in a fireplace, not the hilariously anticlimactic LOG. Cassius and Brutus are on my mind a lot (they figure prominently in Dante's "Inferno") but CASCA??? Totally forgot him (45A: Caesar's first stabber). Again. Just ... ugh. ATOY is horrendous fill and the clue did nothing for me (39A: "This is not ___" (warning to kids)). I have no idea what NCC even is (42A: ___-1701 (U.S.S. Enterprise registry). Seriously?? An abbr. that's cluable only in relation to an *adjacent* abbr.???? It stands for Naval Construction Contract and no, you did not know that.
Then there's ORIENTAL (11D: Avenue between Reading Railroad and Chance) ... I guess nothing says "hey, guys, sorry for BEANER" like ORIENTAL! Which is painfully dated, at best. It's a term that rubs a lot of Asian people the wrong way for reasons I Do Not Have Space or Time or Energy To Get Into. Here is an interview on NPR from ten years ago that puts things in non-inflammatory terms. My favorite part of the interview is when Linda Wertheimer asks Jeff Yang if anyone really *uses* the term ORIENTAL any more (in 2009) and he just laughs. People Still Use It To Describe Asian Things And People In This the Year of Our Lord Twenty Nineteen. ORIENTAL is not BEANER-level jarring, but I wouldn't put it in a puzzle. I mean, you can point to a Monopoly board and yup, there it is. But why are you including terms that need defense? It's common sense. You know it's a racially-loaded term, a term that has been used in racist ways, so why include it at all. Drive Around It. Take a different ... avenue, as it were. Thank you and good day.
Signed, Rex Parker, King of CrossWorld (Twitter @rexparker / #NYTXW)
I don’t think anyone knows NCC 170 from Naval Construction Contract. However many, many people know NCC 1701 as the registration number of the starship USS Enterprise from Star Trek.
I have to agree with Rex today. These themers all seemed a bit off the mark. Who is speaking, or more precisely who is buying all these drinks? The “sot” next to you, an old friend, the bar owner? Your boss? The guy trying to Shanghai you over on Oriental Avenue? Tin-ear quality to the idioms used. And a rather pointless exercise in the NYT’s ongoing obsession with alcohol. Why not pot puzzles? Or cocaine? I don’t think of crossword puzzles as sonething people do in bars. So what’s the connection? Well it’s better than Star Wars or Star Trek... oh, wait... never mind.
I've worked in and visited many bars (brewer.) On any slower day the bar and wait staff are always working a crossword puzzle. My favorite Sunday activity is trying to finish the puzzle before I finish a pint at my local.
Heck of a Tuesday! Luckily I hang out in bars enough to be familiar with most of the Theme answers except for YOUR MONEY'S/NO GOOD HERE. The only time that would have been appropriate was in a bar outside of Manila where someone bought some counterfeit pesos from a scammer and tried to buy drinks with it. I had to guess at Sonja's last name but am old enough to remember her. MOH's scale of hardness was right up my alley, but NCC whatever was not. Altogether a good challenging puzzle.
Never heard of CHICOS, so having that at 1D soured me on this puzzle a bit. Why on earth would a women’s store be called CHICOS? Hmm … Wikipedia says the CHICO’S comes from one of the founders’ friends’ pet parrot. Which simply raises two additional questions: Why name a store after a friend’s parrot? And why name a parrot anything other than Barney?
I agree with many of Rex's sensibilities but aversion to ORIENTAL is not one of them. I did not even think of the Asian connotation when I entered it. As insulting terms go, it's way down the list. And the context, Monopoly, makes it benign as a puzzle entry.
Nice, and appropriate Tuesday-difficult, though have to agree with many of OFL's criticisms. Did this one on paper, as Mrs. 'mericans is on another business trip, and this time took the iPad.
Cool to see TRON in the puzzle, the 1982 Disney Sci-Fi flick. I recall watching it while wearing my brother’s patented 3D glasses, which work on the basis of color differences (blue in the distance, red in front, yellow and green in the mid-distance) rather than stereoscopy.
Also cool to see our son’s place of employ mentioned, and my given name.
Nice cluing for IRAN. Still waiting for "_____-gate".
What I did miss in this puzzle, however, was more word-play. The theme answers are just sentences. Nothing connecting them except them being "welcome comments". Or am I missing something?
Also, the equivalent of "Ooh, ooh, let me look" should be "may I SEE?", not "CAN I SEE?". Just sayin’.
@Rex's reaction to ORIENTAL reminded me of the word ORIENTAte. We're all accustomed to ORIENTAting our maps towards due north, but that has not always been the case. During the Middle Ages, in Europe at least, many maps put the the ORIENT on top, and the Occident (west) on the bottom.
Seventeen letter Os and only four Us. Over to you, M&A.
Your given name is Casca? (Just kidding.) I liked this puzzle more than Rex did. I’m willing to give him a pass on his objections to the “excess” formality of some themes, but he lost me when he chose to read the very mention ORIENTAL Avenue as a slur. That way lies madness, I think, though others might disagree.
ANTONY: Villains, you did not so, when your vile daggers Hack'd one another in the sides of Caesar: You show'd your teeth like apes, and fawn'd like hounds, And bow'd like bondmen, kissing Caesar's feet; Whilst damned Casca, like a cur, behind Struck Caesar on the neck. O you flatterers!
We three Kings of Asia are? I once used the term Oriental with an Asian friend. His comment “Orientals are rugs”. Never made that mistake since. Another example of changes in meanings. What once was good is now non-pc.
If I were called an Occidental, I couldn’t take offense. I am told I should use “Asian” but that could be Russian, Indian, Mongolian, Japanese, Chinese, etcetera. How to differentiate, please?
Got Naticked at 27A/3D - Had Unsnap for Let off the hook and I've never heard of The Goldbergs, so George Sepal sounded like it could be an actor I've never heard of...
Good, tough Tuesday puzzle. Rex doth protest too much on the themers! First of all who cares whether it’s the bartender or a fellow patron speaking, it’s clues as Welcome Comment At A Bar, not Welcome From A Fellow Bar Patton. Secondly I’ve definitely bought a drink for a friend on more than one occasion by telling them their money was no good. Excellent puzzle.
Sorry the constructor used Chicos @Kitchef and @Rex. Sometimes I'm amazed at how many men I know and that still so many football terms and names elude me. Men everywhere and still I don't know this stuff!
The themers don't need verbs. At lunch with my 95-year-old mother-in-law, hand up to stop her, "On me Mom, my pleasure." In my plans for the day I retire, "Drinks all around bartender! I got this one." I'll make sure the bar's empty but I'm gonna say it.
The puzzle was a Wednesday but a lot of fun. Cheers!
Foxes can climb trees that are straight up; they do not require leaning trees to climb. ... Gray fox climb trees head first, and they have the ability to descend a tree either tail first or head first.
Definitely my worst Tuesday time in recent memory, mainly because of the NW corner. I recovered in the rest of the puzzle but lost so much time out of the gate that I was doomed.
The main problem was CHICOS crossing HENIE. Have never heard of the former, and although I've seen the latter in grids before, it hasn't been often enough to actually remember her. And this was all exacerbated by the other marginal fill up there: RETAPE, UNSNAG, and SEGAL (as clued). Guessing George WENDT off the E hurt, as did guessing that {Likewise} was going to be SAMEsomething.
None of those alone were that bad, but together they made for a train wreck. Oh well. Not a huge fan of this one, but on to tomorrow.
Barney? @kitshef, my eclectus parrot is Simon, after Scott Simon, who is the author of a heart-breaking novel, Pretty Birds. Chico's was a gimme as the headquarters are here. The rest was okay.
Changing UNSNAp to UNSNAG finished the solve. I didn’t know who George SEpAL was, but I’m bad at names anyway. It was the “houseboy” of “Who’s Afraid of Virginia Wolfe” after all. Spending my career in academia made me relate to Albee’s masterwork.
This complaint about ORIENTAL is utterly ridiculous. I'm pretty sure Rex is just trying to be controversial here, because there's no way anyone is going to be offended by that, even if they would object to ORIENTAL in its dated usage.
No problem with Oriental as clued. I think that the chink in this puzzle’s armor is “drinks on me”. The other themers work as stand alone phrases that one doesn’t. “The drinks are on me” would’ve worked but wouldn’t have fit. Oh well, still a nice little puzzle.
If you’re going to use the word chink as a cute little I-can-use-slurs-so-long-as-there’s-an-alternate-definition pun, I’d prefer you just call us chinks. Best to be direct. Your comment was snide, passive aggressive, and racist. See? it’s not that hard.
As @ Kyle says, I knew NCC instantly, though not what out stood for. And I say YOURMONEYSNOGOODHERE all the time, and I'm no bartender. Actually, Rex' s ONTHEHOUSE is the one that only the owner could say.
@'mericans...interesting point...I have a real Mercator print of Portugal, and yes, it is ORIENTated as you say. ( I love maps of all sorts...this was a small indulgence I allowed myself when living in Germany near a rare map collector.)
Who remembers Northwest Airlines? Who remembers when they were Northwest Orient?
This puzzle theme made me feel happy. Whether I imagine myself as the speaker of these phrases, or as part of the intended audience, each one would make me feel glad to be there. Thank you Mr. Donaldson!
More political correctness from Rex. Because somebody associates "ORIENTAL" with bigotry against Asians, it's wrong to use it in a puzzle when referring to Oriental Avenue? That's as dumb as it gets.
Don't get Rex's angst over the themers. They are all things you would be glad to hear in a bar, never mind who is saying them. But I disagree that the fourth would only be said by a bartender/owner. I haven't heard it in the wild, but I encountered it in a novel the other day. It was said by the designated host to the honorees at a shindig to celebrate an upcoming wedding.
I, female, have shopped at Chicos, so once I got a couple of crosses it was a given. I figure it made up for some of the sports figures that show up day after day. After day. But not enough.
Thinking MOHS immediately is the kind of thing that makes me worry that I’m doing too many crosswords.
I live near a CHICOS. Didn’t know the Sanibel Island connection. The Sanibel mayor (or maybe former mayor, now) has a summer place four doors from me. Nice guy.
@Eric NC - Yep. Damn racists ruining the language for everyone.
Regarding ORIENTAL, it is hard to argue with Rex, why go there? Yeah, sure, there are benign ways to clue it. But it’s a word tied to racism, why not just go a different direction? It’s not as bad as “beaner,” but why associate your puzzle even tangentially with hate? This is the kind of thing where having more diversity around you would be helpful. It is entirely plausible that lots of people are unaware of the racist usages of the word, but having an Arab-American sociologist for a friend (for example) might alleviate such ignorance.
No foxes in trees around here either. Occasionally "hunters" will go out with dogs and try to tree a bear, which is an abominable practice.
The only Chico I had heard of was a bail bondsman and sponsor of The Bad News Bears. If the other Chico has any stores in New England they're in mysterious places, at least to me.
CHICOS...@Rex...your wife and daughter are definitely not targets for them. Your mom maybe. I've been in one once.fine clothing, much of it INSTYLE, geared towards us women of a certain age. But they bug me with their sizes. I mean, it's just an arbitrary scale. So why are their numbers better? What value does it add to me as a shopper? If I recall, they go something like 000, 00, 0, 0.5 g (?), 1, 1.5... Now if they included imaginary numbers in their sizing, THAT would incentivize me to go on diet!
@Small Town Blogger: I agree. Not long ago, the answer ARI was clued as “The Cards,” and I nearly gagged. There may be a team called the Cardinals in Arizona, but The Cards are and always will be in STL.
While this was a satisfying enough Tuesday, I have to say I also felt it was a little off kilter. ITSMYTREAT and ILLGETTHEBILL sound more like things people would say in a restaurant than a bar. ONTHEHOUSE or ANOTHERROUND seem more in sync with the other themers. NOODGE was new to me. Loved the clue for IRAN.
Interesting the different takes on the word Oriental. Just the other day, I was telling a friend I’d like to go for egg rolls and lo mein and wondered about the proper term for that particular ethnic food. Keeping up with the PC times, yet another reason to do crosswords.
For the record, Jeff Chen complained about ORIENTAL also. I guess when you have been on the receiving end of scorn hurled your way, you become more perspective and sensitive. Problem is, there are just too too many words that can offend people. I wish there were a reasonable solution.
Today's puzzle might be a bit more difficult for a new solver than a Tuesday puzzle should be, but I loved it.
Using "Asian-American" instead of "Oriental" to describe people of Japanese or Chinese ancestry is actually more discriminatory than using "Oriental," because it excludes all Asians except Japanese-Americans and Chinese-Americans. "Asian-Americans" should include people from Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Myanmar, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Lebanon, etc. etc. But it doesn't. This is a classic example of the absurd lengths that people go to in order to seem tolerant.
The term Asian-American was coined to encourage solidarity amongst various peoples of Asian descent against racism and imperialism.
The term oriental comes from the colonization of the Middle East. Japan and China were tacked on later as “The Far Orient.” They by no means constitute the entirety of the Orient in the Western imagination.
I have never met a Chinese-American (as one, I am related to several) who wants to be referred to as oriental. Who would self-identify in the terminology of their colonizer? At worst, they consider it racist. At best, they’d think you’re ignorant
I have always loved the word ORIENTAL because it conjures up images of beauty from the Far East. I have some ORIENTAL art work and a cherished silk rug that bring a lot of joy to me. The word is only considered offensive when used to describe a person. So today we have bar TREATS. Almost as good as a hot fudge Sundae. I do, though, understand where @Rex is coming from. Some of these phrases don't really sound like they fit in. I kept wondering if this is being said by the bartender or is it something my gal pals and I would say while sitting on our favorite stools at The Shady Lady Saloon in Sacramento?....may I suggest the Chauffeur? DRINKS ON ME definitely but when we get to the ITS MY TREAT and ILL GET THE BILL, I think restaurant. The clue for CLOD (Dirt ball) seemed odd. I think of a CLOD as an ignoramus and a dirt ball as a nasty. All these words that confuse the deontology virus I've been inoculated with. Despite the NCC's of the puzzle, I rather enjoyed the "stiff" work-out. Highballs - always welcome!
@Anon - I've wondered about "The Land of the Rising Sun". That's true only from the perspective of China. Maybe @lms can shed some light.
This from Wiki: " Prince Shōtoku, the Regent of Japan, sent a mission to China with a letter in which he called himself "the Emperor of the Land where the Sun rises" (日出處天子). The message said: "Here, I, the emperor of the country where the sun rises, send a letter to the emperor of the country where the sun sets. How are you[?]"."
@Z - I, a lowly commentator, also hate all those extra syllables, and avoid utilizing them. I just don't know what came over me...! (I mean - no one commntates, do they??????? Why should I be demoted to a commentator, reserving commenter only for those paid to do it? I mean, sheesh! And why does one get an "or" while the other is an "er"?)
My favorite theme answer is "your moneys..." As someone reaches for their wallet/purse it is said warmly and in a funny way. "This is not a toy" is usually something said to a dog at my house. Chicos was a brilliant business venture. They cater to women who have less-than-perfect figures but still like to dress fashionably and comfortably at the same time. Think Bea Arthur of Golden Girls. There seemed to be too many plurals today. Kens, heys, Dalis, idols, lutes, borers. Enough already. I like clues like "pestering people" that have words that can be different parts of speech. Noodges?
@Z 09:14 -- Care to elaborate? Are you complaining about ORIENTAte and ORIENTAting in lieu of ORIENT and ORIENTing? And here I thought you were one of those who embraced constant change in the language. According to Merriam-Webster, ORIENTAte (and its derivatives) entered English almost two centuries ago, a century after the appearance of ORIENT as a verb. But I'll do a deal with you in exchange for you stopping with your use of one of my bugbears. :-)
@Nancy from yesterday - thx for that tiny circles explanation. Now I get it, and can see your point. I thought it was an objection to that style of puzzling where certain letters within the grid are highlighted. So it's not that - it's just the choice for highlighting! Yes - shading is much better.
Hey All ! I'm feeling tipsy after doing this puz! Had a few if these happen to me during my bar drinking days. Unfortunately, my MONEY was always GOOD.
How was TRON inspired by Pong? I thought the movie was based off the TRON video game. A Pong movie would be rather boring, no? LOCUTION of Borg. Har. Another NCC reference.
Almost had a DNF at SAGELY. Had NOODlES and CA_CA (not up on my stabbers) so put rArELY in, which changed NOODlES to NOODrES, which was definitely wrong. Ran the alphabet in my head to get the G, and then finally saw SAGELY. Whew! A complete, non-DNF today! No OOPS! WOO SOO! :-)
Speaking of SOO, there's a TRAIN line called SOO Lines. Lots of Double Doubles in here, central themer, LL LL, ASSESS, OK, maybe not that many!
Foxes climb trees? Heh, who knew? Evidently, according to one internet article, they're more like cats than dogs.
The term "ORIENTAL" is yet another one of those Euro-centric holdovers that by now needs to go away. While the equivalent "occident" is just another directional word that has no particular negative connotation, it is still Euro-centric. People who live in the "orient" or the "east" don't necessarily live in the "east." As far as they are concerned they are living in the west and the peoples east of them are living in the east. San Francisco is east of Japan...why would anyone insist that Californians are western? Because Europe, that's why. And not just Europe, but European culture...which has, for a very long time, claimed to be more cultured than any other culture around the world. It is what white supremacists claim is the reason the white Euro race is superior. The Enlightenment, the Renaissance, *Art.* (Never mind that most of those yahoos wouldn't know Mozart from Mahler, Manet from Renoir, or that a lot of those "artists" from the 16th to early 20th centuries were ::gasp:: jewish and even possibly ::eek:: one of The Gays™.
So the TL;DR here is that "Orient" is oriented that way because of a Eurocentric superiority complex. It isn't that it has become non-PC, it's that it is flatly wrong. There is no east or west. We live on a globe. To claim to be the center of it all and then somehow separate yourselves from the rest of the globe is well...racist. What do people in India call Indian food? Food, that's what. It's not "Indian food" in India. It's not Mexican food in Mexico. Art is the same. It's not "eastern" music in Japan. It's music. Oriental rugs are rugs in India. Just beautiful rugs. Many of which are mass manufactured these days in America by machines in the style of a rug hand-stitched and made of wool in India.
Here in America, we talk about the North or the South or the East coast and West coast, clearly that's different. But global orientation is different from east to west...you can move east to west or west to east, but there is no "West" and no "East" like there is a North Pole or South Pole.
You are my new CRUSH, Samuel A. Donaldson. Will you be my... 1)Date? 2)Bartender?
And what is all that crunch I'm experiencing right now? Bar pretzels? Bar peanuts? Bar crackers? No, it's the crunch of an unusually challenging Tuesday puzzle -- one that respects the solver's intelligence and requires quite a bit of thought. A real TREAT! And best of all, Sam [hic], it's your TREAT! Thank you so much!
I clicked the link to the NPR interview to understand why "Oriental" is offensive. I learned that the phrase is "freighted with luggage," that it's "cultural baggage," and that it "feels old" and "feels antiquated." Well that answers that.
Also, it literally means "Eastern" and, since the world is round, anything can be seen as "Eastern" depending on your vantage point. Note to self: referring to the U.S. and Europe as "The West" is apparently racist. Who knew?
Sometimes when I read what Rex has to say I cannot help but feel inadequate. No, not because he solves so quickly but because he reminds me of his moral superiority. I am a mere dirt clod on this spinning globe with no hope of enlightenment.
It's the name of a STREET, ferchrissakes! Now if the street name was "N-word Boulevard" I could understand the objection. But this use of "Oriental" is 100% benign. It's a word we use all the time, whether playing Monopoly or describing rugs.
Would you (Rex) object to a clue that read, "Person who worships in a shul" if the answer is "Jew"? Lots of folks - bigots, really - use that term as a pejorative.
Maybe we just need more safe spaces. To quote the Orange Menace, "SAD."
Medium hard for me, and I had fun sussing out the phrases. Would have been more fun if they had rhymed: It's my treat/drinks on me/bottoms up/'cause it's all free.
@kyle 7:02: never knew that NCC stood for Naval Construction Contract, that led me to this absolutely fascinating wiki article on the design, construction, and evolution of the USS Enterprise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701)
I don't agree with castigating people because their directional references are culturally and therefore language-specific. Yes, of course Asia was the ORIENT to people in Europe, and hence in their languages. (English emerged in Europe.) I would expect Asian languages to use references based on their own geographic perspective.
Related to that, and for what it's worth, I once precipitated a minor diplomatic incident by including in an early draft of a report on fishing policy in South Korea a map labelling the body of east of the peninsular the "Sea of Japan", as it is called on most English-language maps. The South Korean Ambassador got very upset and insisted it be labelled "the East Sea". All the subsequent discussion took place above my pay grade, but I remember thinking, "Yeah, I get it. But east of where? Should the United States now insist that the body of water to its south be called the Gulf of Texas?" In the end, the diplomatic bargain struck at the time was not to label the sea between Korea and Japan anything at all. Just leave it blank.
That was in the late 1990s. In 2012, The International Hydrographic Organization (the international governing body for the naming of bodies of water around the world) decided not to change the current single name "Sea of Japan" rejecting North and South Korea's request that "East Sea" and "Sea of Japan" be used concurrently. The UN decided it had no authority on the matter and asked the involved countries to resolve the differences over the name among themselves. I believe they have reached no resolution. Perhaps they should change it to "The Blue-Green Except in the Winter when it is Gray Sea".
Strange, I didn’t care for the theme answers at all, yet I really enjoyed the puzzle. Strange.
I would never use the term Oriential to refer to Asians, although I have no problem with using it to refer to a property on the Monopoly board and it’s a real true street name in quite a few states.
Also, surprisingly to me, some real live Asians in my very progressive town opened up a Chinese restaurant called Oriental Taste. It’s always jammed (often with Asians). Then they opened another restaurant one town over called Oriental Flavor. So there you go.
@Gill and @Anon 9:38 You ain't from these parts are ya? A clod IS actually a ball or a lump of dirt, frequently clay which is damp and tends to stick to your boots when you're out in the field. That's why we call certain types of boots 'clod hoppers' out here yonder.
CHICOS is widespread enough that even M&A was aware of it. And M&A is sure no clothes-horse. Official M&A Help Desk Dictionary does indicate that ORIENTAL used as a noun is considered "dated, often offensive". Sayin "ORIENTAL rug" is still apparently ok, tho. Good ol' language minefields. Sooo … M&A ain't quite ready to burn his Monopoly board, yet.
This puz haz a sorta themeless look to it: all longball fillins, in the West & East marginal areas. This made things a little more challengin and therefore interestin, for a TuesPuz, as @mmorgan darlin mentioned.
fave longball by far was: ASSESS. On account of it crosses/enables 4 ass esses (yo, @AnoaBob). staff weeject pick: NGO. Better clue: {Bingo card columns??}. honorable mention to NCC, which is definitely considered offensive … to Klingons and Romulans. Like I was sayin … minefield. Great weeject stacks at 12 & 6 o'clock, btw.
NETH ... ick. eww. ugh. NEWDO … har
Theme was real complimentary. Didn't seem to be a Happy Hour for @RP, tho...
This was a day-um fun solvequest at our house, Mr. Donaldson. Thanx for yer hard work and generous bar code. I'll have the house margarita. Frozen, please.
Masked & Anonymo4Us (yo, @mericans … real glad to hear U are lookin out for them lil darlins.)
I loved this puzzle. Oriental is still a word and Oriental Ave. remains a thing. It was my understanding that oriental can also still be used for carpets and gardens and such, though maybe I need to increase my heart rate on the euphemism treadmill.
Problem with the missing verb for DRINKSONME?? Felt very natural and just as kosher as NOPROB or SEEYA (which contains no subject!)
@‘mericans - I never called it wrong, only “ughly.” I can’t read the damn thing without hearing a nasally “tate” followed by an immediate “ugh.” Mine was purely an aesthetic request.
@Tita A - I think there is a difference between a “commenter” and a “commentator.” The commentariat are “commentators,” while while most anonymous posters are “commenters” (and anonymice are merely trolls). Where’s the line fo demarcation? I know it when I see it.
@GILL (9:26): "A lump or mass, esp. of earth or clay." (Webster's). Sometimes a CLOD is an actual "Dirt ball" and not a person at all :)
@'@mericans, @GILL, @Sir Hillary, @Calman S, @Off the Grid, @Bob Mills, and @"Leslie from the Occident" (love your witty blog name) -- Thanks to you all collectively for injecting a much-needed dose of common sense, perspective (pun intended) and good humor in the face of this puzzle's latest Outrage of the Day.
@kitshef -- You have 15 CHICOS nearby, while I have lost my one-and-only store in the East 70s? That's not fair! What do you need CHICO'S for, anyway? You're a guy. Yes, it is meant for women of a certain age -- mostly because the clothes don't contain Spandex -- the worst invention of the 20th-century after the nuclear bomb and the jackhammer. And you do have to be careful when you shop there so you don't end up looking, per @Susie Q's warning, anything like Bea Arthur in "Golden Girls"! But as someone here said -- I forget who -- it's possible to look quite stylish. What I remember about them is that they had great, subtle prints. No one has great, subtle prints anymore. And, @Tita -- I never noticed their 000 sizing system. But I hate all such subterfuge. Since I absolutely loathe shopping, all I want from size tags is info that enables me to find my correct size (It used to be called a "10"; God knows what it's called now) in a nonce and not have to guess...and guess...and guess. You'd think I'd remember all those 000s and 00s, but I don't. I probably asked the salesperson to look at me and point me to the appropriate size.
From those of us here in Natick, we have the Massachusetts/kevin spacey comments at a bar, with thanks to Jim Morrison;
1. How old are you? 2. Where do you go to school? 3. Can I see your ID? 4. Will you sign a consent to contact form? 5. Do you have your lawyer on speed dial? 6. Want to go back to my place and watch Cosby reruns?
Anyone who has received hate mail will tell you that they are more than poison pen letters--they are freakin scary. Also, I didn't realize I made a mistake until I saw Rex's review. I had "in couple" as in "they are in" didn't know what "it" meant in this context and I totally missed that "This is not an oy" only makes sense in my yiddish speaking family.
Rex, you're losing it. I filled in NCC near the end, and knew right away it was from Star Trek (and I was hardly a fan of the series). I get where you're coming from on the theme answers. I wanted ILLGETHTEBILL to be either BEER or BREW. So yeah, sort of bumpy. But since I'm no great solver, this felt more like a Thursday puzzle in terms of difficulty. Took me a very long time to finish.
So we shouldn’t visit any of the many Chinese restaurants with Oriental in their names, visit the Mandarin Oriental hotel, shop at Oriental Trading Comany, or go the Revel Casino on Oriental Ave, in Atlantic City. Also, 411.com lists 81 people with the last name Oriental living in NYC. Should we shun them ? Is that what the language scolds want ?
There happens to be a CHICOS on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. It always struck me as the kind of store where my grandmother would have shopped.
I can think of one place where ORIENTAL was used to distinguish between East and West in a way that did not refer to Asia and Europe. When I lived In what is now called the Democratic Republic of Congo, there was the province of Kasai ORIENTAL and the province of Kasai Occidental. Those two provinces were subdivided when I left and there still seems to be a Province if Kasai ORIENTAL. I lived in the province of Haut-Zaire, which had been previously known as ORIENTALe and reverted to ORIENTALe after I left. That province has now been subdivided into a bunch of smaller provinces too.
*USS* Enterprise??? it was always called 'Starship Enterprise, NCC-1701' so far as I can recall. the ID on the hull was NCC-1701. not USS or Enterprise.
ORIENTAL is indeed a dated term when used to refer to people. So old, in fact, that the first term that came to mind was "ORIENTAL potentate". But I was a Bob and Ray fan 60 years ago (still am, too).
Great puzzle, though very tough -- took me 30 minutes to do on paper,
My only complaint about the themers is, I never hear I'LL GET THE BILL." Heard all the others but what I have more often heard (and said, sometimes) is I'll get the *check*. You may refer to your credit card statement as a BILL, but for some reason, "check" is universally used in bars and restaurants.
Yep, @M&A, that ASSESS is very handy. How else could you get RAHS, NOODGES, DALIS, and STYES, all that in one corner? The mother of all POC enablers would be ASSESSES.
I was surprised to see a "Women's clothing chain" named CHICOS. Isn't that a colloquial term for young boys? Would not CHICAS be better?
Mostly medium except for, like most of you, the NW which pushed this into tough territory. CHICOS was a WOE and I’ve never seen “The Goldbergs”. (The last time I saw SEGAL was in “Just Shoot Me”).
Like many of the drinks you might order in a bar, my feeling were mixed.
OFL is clearly not a "Trekkie." As for "Oriental," it's a perfectly good word. I would not use one to describe a person of Asian descent, but let's stop being so touchy about language. As the late, great George Carlin once remarked, "There are no bad words; bad thoughts, bad intentions, but no bad words." This also reminds me of the line in The Big Lebowski: "Also, Dude, "Chinaman" is not the preferred nomenclature. "Asian-American," please." Should the makers of Monopoly change the name of the street so as not to offend the "politically correct"? N.B. The "beaner" answer from last week is a whole 'nother animal, and I understand it's being objectionable.
I started out thinking I was going to CRUSH the puzzle, with that entry x CHICOS x HENIE going right in. But then it got challenging. I couldn't come up with MOHS, didn't know ORIENTAL, SEGAL, LIZ, or NCC and was just generally uninspired at dealing with the long Downs. Thankfully, the theme answers were easy enough to guess, once a few crosses were in. I did know CASCA, having played him in a H.S. production, clad in a bedsheet. Still smarting that somebody else got Cassius, with that lean and hungry look.
Help from previous crosswords: NOODGES, TRON, KAL-EL.
Nice pairing of HATEMAIL and SNIDEST. I also liked the Harry Potter connection of RON Weasley and WIZARD HAT.
@CLODette is correct. The primary definition of clod is lump of clay. It apparently is also used do describe someone with the IQ of a lump of clay. I use it and often heard it used to describe someone who moves slowly and clumsily - as if they have 20 lbs.of wet clay on their clod hoppers or is acting as if he has a similar mental impediment. @anon 9:26 makes a good case for not using "oriental". Let it become archaic. To those who say it's only a street name, let it become an archaic street name. Was it named because asian people lived or did business there? Or did someone in an office just make them up? I notice on the map that Oriental is in the most eastern section of A.C. and the easternmost avenue that runs parallel to the Boardwalk. It is also one block from Pacific Ave. And it is just a few blocks from the end or beginning of historic and iconic Route 30. If you want to see a wonderful movie about clodhopper culture try "Route 30".
@Tita, not only do I remember the airline, I can still hear their musical tag-line in my mind. When I was growing up the only two airlines out of Green Bay were Northwest Orient and North Central -- and the latter only flew to fairly local destinations. So NW was the first airline that ever gave me a trip (to Amsterdam) for miles. I remember them fondly.
I liked the theme, and liked the puzzle generally -- it seemed to have a lot of fresh answers (I haven't counted them, though). LUTES are a lot more closely related to guitars than they are to mandolins, but it was nice to see them in the puzzle; maybe Friday we'll get a theorbo.
Anyway, everyone should calm down. There are some words none of us would use even with alternate meanings, and others that are offensive in an alternate use but acceptable otherwise -- and probably everyone draws the line between the two in a different place. The location of the line is not a matter of principle.
What I learned today: CHICO'S started in Sanibel! The first time I ever encountered one was on Captiva, the neighboring island, but I had no idea. I have to admit, though, that I put in unIqlo originally.
Yes TRON Was inspired by pong - the greatest of all video games. I know under a dozen Yiddish words, and had no problem guessing noodge was a Yiddish derived word.
@Tita and @jberg, thanks for the trip down memory lane with (sing along) "Northwest Or-i-ent" [pause for gong strike] Airlines." Like @jberg, I took my first flight on a NW plane (prop driven, of course) in 1963, on my first leg of an AFS trip to Germany as a sixteen year old. A momentous step for this small-town Wisconsin girl.
CHICOS - I join the crowd who hasn't heard of them. To my surprise, they're all over the Twin Cities metro. I don't think I'll be shopping there any time soon. It might be my age group but not my IN-STYLE. And the incorrect CAN instead of mAy had me hesitating a moment in the NW.
I nearly DNF'd at SEGAL-UNSNAG. I had George SEpAL (not much of a TV watcher these days) after UNSNAp seemed like something you would do to let a bra off the hook. I had considered a fishing hook but couldn't think beyond "catch and release".
I'LL GET THE Beer made for an ODDS-looking WeZARD HAT so that had to get fixed. And I will send HATE MAIL to anyone making Monopoly clues - ugh - and crossing MOHS and CITI.
I won't complain about a hard Tuesday, so thanks, S.A.D.
I do not object to 'ORIENTAL' appearing in this puzzle with that clueing for reasons I'll offer below, but I think that many of the comments here are uncharitable to Rex's position.
The argument is not that it should be illegal to use the word in general conversation, or even in crosswords. He is not encouraging anyone to use the power of state to enforce the position. Nor need he say that all uses of the word are immoral. Rather, the argument is that:
1. The purpose of a crossword puzzle is to produce enjoyment in those who do it. 2. Certain words, due to their historical uses and meaning, are likely to cause harm, or at least unpleasantness to a significant number of solvers. 3. The use of the word is not essential to the enjoyment of other solvers. 4. If a word can be changed without reducing the enjoyment of some solvers, and will avoid unpleasantness/harm to others, it should be changed. 5. 'ORIENTAL' is a word that satisfies (2)-(4). 6. Therefore, the word 'ORIENTAL' should have been changed in the puzzle.
The George Carlin position that there are no bad words is a red herring. This argument does not presume that there are bad words. It only requires that there are uses where the harms outweigh the benefits, and that crossword puzzles are a context where we should focus on that cost/benefit ratio (obviously one could believe that it is true for crossword editing but not think that it is true for government regulation of speech, for example).
Now, I as said, I am not concerned about the word 'ORIENTAL,' because I am not convinced that (2) is true. I think there are uses that would meet that condition - particularly when the term is applied to people. However, there are other uses of the term that are important - including anti-racist uses. In particular, "orientalizing" is used to describe the racism of a certain kind of positive impression of people that nevertheless others them.
It is important, however, to be fair to those with whom we disagree, and that includes the position Rex has staked out here.
NCC was a gimme. Not that I know what it stands for. I'm not a Trekkie, but we watched the entire series with our kids. For what it's worth the USS stands for United Star Ship.
I can't believe Rex is going off on ORIENTAL, what am I supposed to call my carpets? I don't use it to describe people.
I thought Caesar's first stabber might be CASio, but that's a different Shakespeare play and it's spelled with 2 s's.
Chicos was a welcome break from all the sports arcana.
Still waiting for Rex to take responsibility for bad-mouthing Hasidim as an odd plural. It is, in fact, an example of a standard masculine-plural in Hebrew. I guess ignorance and ethnocentrism are perfectly acceptable when Rex is the commenter.
I might not have gotten the "your money is" NOGOODHERE one if I hadn't heard it just a few days ago on Cheers. My Cheers-watching made this puzzle's theme easy.
This crossword puzzle was better for me than a lot of them. Not much sports (yay!), no cigars, not much obscure geography. I liked it. TREED reminds me about when I lived on 34 acres with a ridge and the time I could track the progress of a hunting party as the dog-barking sound moved along the ridge side. It's disconcerting because you wonder about stray bullets, especially from hunters who skipped the bar, but warmed up with a bottle or a shared six-pack.
I had trouble with NOODGES/SAGELY/CASCA and whatever that Great Lakes thing was. And the Enterprise, even though I was a rabid Star Trek fan as a teen. And SEGAL/UNSNAG. I also had unsnap. I liked this puzzle. It was the right level of challenging for me.
I began working as a social worker for the local department of social services in Maryland in 1980. At that time, when we filled out paperwork about a family, we had to enter the "race" of each member of a family. Here were our choices: white, black, Spanish-speaking, oriental. No "bi-racial", no "other". Within a few years, "oriental" changed to "Asian-American" and "Spanish-speaking" became "Hispanic." Another few years and "Hispanic" became "Latino". Then each "category" became a paragraph...instead of "Asian-American", it became "person with origins in the native peoples of China, Japan, Southeast Asia and Pacific Islands." Which left out the folks from India, Pakistan, the Middle East, etc, etc. I mean, they're only about 1 billion people in India and Pakistan, guess the state of Maryland didn't figure on that.
In addition, since there was no check-off for bi-racial or multi-racial, you had to "assign" one race to everyone. If a child was bi-racial, you checked off the race of the mother. That was the regulation. So, for example, Barack Obama and Drake would be registered as "white", and Rob Schneider (SNL) would have been registered as "Oriental".
Don't get me started on the "religion" section.
I had a situation where a Mom saw the paper where I checked off "white" and roared with laughter. She was a white woman from Maryland and her husband was black and from Kenya. She said to me, "Next time my son gets called 'ni---r' at school or at the playground, I'll tell him to say, 'oh, you're wrong, my social worker says I'm white'".
I told my supervisor I wasn't filling out "race" anymore, because I wasn't going to classify people or determine for them what they are.
Thirty-eight years later, we still can't get it right. So constructors, spend some extra time and get rid of "Oriental", "hood", "Nazi", "chink", etc. Words can harm and words can help. Let's opt in for help.
@Clodette - best comment ever! There are many rap stars, football terms and small towns all across America I have never heard of. That doesn't make them obscure.
Rex, I sincerely hope you and all the people who are sniffing at ORIENTAL plan to throw out your Monopoly sets and never play the game again. Petition Hasbro, while you're at it. I know it's time-consuming, but you, too, can make a difference...
Congratulations to Sam Donaldson, who also constructed today's WSJ puzzle. It's about the same level of difficulty and the same type of solving experience. Nice job!
In 1986, a Chinese-American colleague kindly advised me, a Caucasian, that "Oriental" is offensive to Asians. Thirty-three years later, it is mind-boggling there are people who *still* don't know that. My gues is that the commenters in the racist-terms-are-no-big-thing camp associate almost exclusively with people of their own race.
@Airymom -- "person with origins in the native peoples of China, Japan, Southeast Asia and Pacific Islands" is indeed pretty limiting. I doubt very many people meet that criterion. Betcha a hell lot more people would meet the criterion of "person with origins in the native peoples of China, Japan, Southeast Asia or Pacific Islands", however.
@Lynx : I didn’t read anyone say racist terms are no big thing. I read many times that Oriental, as clued, is not a racist word. One of us has poor reading comprehension. If it’s me please point out two posts which imply that racist terms are no big thing. Thanks buddy.
@jberg, @carola...they were my favorite airline. When I started traveling for business in earnest, it was to the ORIENT - sorry - to Hong Kong, the Philippines, and Taiwan. Northwest had the most flights. So I accumulated lotso' miles. They had the best frequent flier program by far. Aah---those were the days - automatic upgrades to Business or First almost all the time.
Speaking of airline jingles, do you also remember "Yellowbird, Northeast makes the flying fun..."? Never took it, but loved the ad - sung to the tune of Yellow Bird. I think Northeast painted one set of planes yellow for their Carribean destinatoins?
4-n-out (Hey - y'all knew what you were in for when I came back here!!)
Being a white woman who's owned, fostered, and rescued only ever Siamese and Burmese cats, ORIENTAL did not jar me. Those breeds as well as others are still called ORIENTALs, and additionally I don't think anyone is clamoring for "Thai" and "Myanmarese" to replace those names. (The eponymous Zen in the photo to the right is a Burmese girl.)
That said, "why use a term that needs defense at all" is also a valid point. I've disliked many a racist and ableist term in the NYT so just because this particular one didn't tweak me is not, in itself, a defense.
As an Arab American, it’s obvious to me that Rex’s complaint about “ORIENTAL” is absurd. The clue did not relate to a people, and the word itself can still be a valid one in certain contexts. It’s nothing like BEANER which does not relate to baseball (as clued) and would always be offensive, especially in the Southwest. But the statement of outrage from Rex did result in more comments.
@airymom - Your post reminded me of the struggle we had in my school district, a district with a high percentage of Arab-Americans, many of them recent immigrants and refugees. We used the federal definitions which meant all those Arab-Americans are “white.” That same federal government would then ask us questions about services we provided to our Arab-American population. Guess what, if you don’t have a separate “race” or “ethnicity” in your computer system it is kinda hard to run a report for a specific group of people. Of course, the whole notion of labeling, say, a sixth generation American of Lebanese descent the same as recent Yemeni or Iraqi immigrant was fraught with political implications as well. What fun.
Anyone want to discuss the new Gillette ad? No? Shucks.
@Z-When I’m looking for guidance in my life I always turn to a Dow 30 company, P&G (Gillette) for my relationship with women. Goldman Sachs for child rearing. Chevron for a mid-life crisis. Walgreen’s for spiritual insights...
First STABBER of Caesar. This is an exaggeration because Plutarch writes: "It was Casca who gave him the first blow with his dagger, in the neck, not a mortal wound, nor even a deep one, for which he was too much confused, as was natural at the beginning of a deed of great daring; so that Caesar turned about, grasped the knife, and held it fast." So, in essence Casca gave Caesar a mere pin prick.
Rex, I agree with you about “oriental” and wow, you get a lot of doddering, sentient anachronisms commenting on your posts. So many of these comments are unreadable and so tiresome with their “ohhh please, this slur doesn’t offend ME so therefore it is totally normal and correct”. So much love for the status quo, it’s laughable. (p.s. I don’t get notifications when people reply to my comments, so folks who disagree with me (or who agree!), don’t bother replying here because I won’t read it.)
I LOG on only to see Rex's ASSESSment is full of the SNIDEST remarks. A WRY comment here, and a TSK TSK there - the AXE grinding never stops. He can see NOGOODHERE - it's almost like reading HATEMAIL. My question is, when CANISEE more from Samuel A Donaldson? I can't WAIT. ODDS are, and with ANYLUCK, it won't be long.
@Foggy et. al. Synders - Like my husband used to do with letters from his mother (Daughter of Grinch incarnate), I have learned to merely skim OFL's comments before deciding to read thoroughly. And only then if I have summoned up a wry state of mind and can visualize the appropriate Lewis Black image during the rant reading.
I thought the theme was better constructed/more interesting than the last two days, and it helped with the solve. Jus put that on my tab.
Wow! I just tried to post, and got an OOPS! message; the whole thing was lost. In it, I challenged OFL to argue his case for being offended by ORIENTAL, because I just don't get it. Is he looking over our shoulder WHILE WE'RE TYPING??? Well, I still don't get it, and the challenge remains. I'm fed up to here with this offense-taking thing. Egad! Am I taking offense at taking offense? HELP!!!
For a Tuesday, this puzzle has some screwy entries, including never-heard-ofs CHICOS and NOODGES. How many HEYS are there? SOO many fill clunkers: UPIN, ATOY, TAS, NETH, the crutchy ASSESS. It's like the guy just doesn't care. YOURMONEYSNOGOODHERE may be a legit offer to buy, but it still sounds like an insult. I'd never say that. The other themers seem space-adjusted, as OFL pointed out. Not tight.
On the plus side, thanks for the Star Trek shout-out with NCC (bad fill though it is), and yes, Fearless One, the true Trekkie certainly knows what the acronym stands for. Entire histories have been written about the ST universe. Bona fide Klingon dictionaries exist. We know this stuff. Also for the nod to Jor-El's kid.
Thanks too for the delightful Tina Fey as LIZ and DOD. These few bright stars twinkle amid the dark matter that is the rest of this grid. They improve the score from "other" to double-bogey.
I think I’ve said all of those things, so, whatevs. CHICOS on the other hand is unknown to me, though it appears there are some around here if a gal wants to be INSTYLE. With ANYLUCK I will never see one.
No self-respecting fox around here would ever get TREED. They’ll run your coon hounds (and hunters) to exhaustion in a veeeery wide circle. I speak from experience. NOGOOD. A raccoon or bear will climb UPIN the first suitable TREE after a hound bays.
Let’s all petition to get the ORIENTAL Avenue name changed. Sheesh.
50 years of subliminal quick-takes must have burned NCC into the brain pan.
Sonja HENIE was quite the yeah baby in her day. I’ll bet she did more than one Axel.
Any puz with a RON in it has to be good for something.
There is an ORIENTAL cocktail which is made with WRY whiskey, sweet vermouth, and lime juice, so it might just be a sixth themer. There is also an Orange CRUSH cocktail. You can also SNEAK a drink.
I wanted ahem for "Beg Pardon" instead of OOPS. OOPS seems like something you say when you spill your MICRO brew at the bar.
Learned from Crossword: Foxes climb TREEs. STYES keep your eyes open.
Feared a DNF here, but avoided it by shifting into a Wednesday/Friday mode as I encountered some unusually rough stuff. The North was tough enough for a Tuesday, but the South was tougher.
In the SE, it was NOODGES and DALI crossed by SAGELY. In particular, the G in NOODGES, the last letter in the solve. In the SW, it was the NCC, completed by the C in LOCUTION. And LyreS before LUTES didn't help.
A well-constructed and challenging piece of work by SAD, which I would have been had I not finished.
Among all the bars extant, I'm sure there is at least one in which one or other of the themers would have been uttered by some guy at some time, especially if he/she understands the concept of "my turn". If some one says "DRINKS ON ME", I'm not going to argue with him/her.
I'm also not going to argue with those who say that ORIENTAL has racist overtones, although I don't understand it. Maybe I'm a bit thick.
Thought I was going to dnf on a Tuesday so it was satisfying to see 'challenging' even with the qualifier. Never heard of noodges, or Casca, or Chico's, but managed not to muck up the grid much except in the SE, where I had to change wisELY to SAGELY and sizEup to ASSESS. No Oriental rugs here, but a really bad joke from the sixties. Name an Oriental god who devours himself.........Gobbledegook.
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I don’t think anyone knows NCC 170 from Naval Construction Contract. However many, many people know NCC 1701 as the registration number of the starship USS Enterprise from Star Trek.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Rex today. These themers all seemed a bit off the mark. Who is speaking, or more precisely who is buying all these drinks? The “sot” next to you, an old friend, the bar owner? Your boss? The guy trying to Shanghai you over on Oriental Avenue? Tin-ear quality to the idioms used. And a rather pointless exercise in the NYT’s ongoing obsession with alcohol. Why not pot puzzles? Or cocaine? I don’t think of crossword puzzles as sonething people do in bars. So what’s the connection? Well it’s better than Star Wars or Star Trek... oh, wait... never mind.
ReplyDeleteI've worked in and visited many bars (brewer.) On any slower day the bar and wait staff are always working a crossword puzzle. My favorite Sunday activity is trying to finish the puzzle before I finish a pint at my local.
DeleteHeck of a Tuesday! Luckily I hang out in bars enough to be familiar with most of the Theme answers except for YOUR MONEY'S/NO GOOD HERE. The only time that would have been appropriate was in a bar outside of Manila where someone bought some counterfeit pesos from a scammer and tried to buy drinks with it. I had to guess at Sonja's last name but am old enough to remember her. MOH's scale of hardness was right up my alley, but NCC whatever was not. Altogether a good challenging puzzle.
ReplyDeleteJulius Caesar, Act III, scene I
ReplyDeleteCASCA: Speak, hands for me!
[CASCA first, then the other Conspirators and
BRUTUS stab CAESAR]
CAESAR: Et tu, Brute! Then fall, Caesar.
[Dies]
Never heard of CHICOS, so having that at 1D soured me on this puzzle a bit. Why on earth would a women’s store be called CHICOS? Hmm … Wikipedia says the CHICO’S comes from one of the founders’ friends’ pet parrot. Which simply raises two additional questions: Why name a store after a friend’s parrot? And why name a parrot anything other than Barney?
ReplyDeleteI agree with many of Rex's sensibilities but aversion to ORIENTAL is not one of them. I did not even think of the Asian connotation when I entered it. As insulting terms go, it's way down the list. And the context, Monopoly, makes it benign as a puzzle entry.
ReplyDelete"It couple"??? 35D Come on!
ReplyDeleteI’m just glad to have STL back on scoreboards after two straight uses of ARI. Baseball rules!!!
ReplyDeletePS. Apparently there are fifteen CHICOS within 25 miles of my house, so that tells you something about my general awareness.
ReplyDeleteNice, and appropriate Tuesday-difficult, though have to agree with many of OFL's criticisms. Did this one on paper, as Mrs. 'mericans is on another business trip, and this time took the iPad.
ReplyDeleteCool to see TRON in the puzzle, the 1982 Disney Sci-Fi flick. I recall watching it while wearing my brother’s patented 3D glasses, which work on the basis of color differences (blue in the distance, red in front, yellow and green in the mid-distance) rather than stereoscopy.
Also cool to see our son’s place of employ mentioned, and my given name.
Nice cluing for IRAN. Still waiting for "_____-gate".
What I did miss in this puzzle, however, was more word-play. The theme answers are just sentences. Nothing connecting them except them being "welcome comments". Or am I missing something?
Also, the equivalent of "Ooh, ooh, let me look" should be "may I SEE?", not "CAN I SEE?". Just sayin’.
@Rex's reaction to ORIENTAL reminded me of the word ORIENTAte. We're all accustomed to ORIENTAting our maps towards due north, but that has not always been the case. During the Middle Ages, in Europe at least, many maps put the the ORIENT on top, and the Occident (west) on the bottom.
Seventeen letter Os and only four Us. Over to you, M&A.
Your given name is Casca? (Just kidding.) I liked this puzzle more than Rex did. I’m willing to give him a pass on his objections to the “excess” formality of some themes, but he lost me when he chose to read the very mention ORIENTAL Avenue as a slur. That way lies madness, I think, though others might disagree.
DeleteJulius Caesar, Act V, scene I
ReplyDeleteANTONY: Villains, you did not so, when your vile daggers
Hack'd one another in the sides of Caesar:
You show'd your teeth like apes, and fawn'd like hounds,
And bow'd like bondmen, kissing Caesar's feet;
Whilst damned Casca, like a cur, behind
Struck Caesar on the neck. O you flatterers!
11 clues from Shortz and pre-shotz have Casca as the first stabber of Caesar.
Oriental was clued as an avenue in Monopoy, which it is. It’s a perfectly fine word. We have to resist the language Nazis.
ReplyDeleteCouldn’t agree more. Facts are facts. If you don’t like facts, don’t do crossword puzzles. They may annoy you.
DeleteWe three Kings of Asia are? I once used the term Oriental with an Asian friend. His comment “Orientals are rugs”. Never made that mistake since. Another example of changes in meanings. What once was good is now non-pc.
ReplyDeleteIf I were called an Occidental, I couldn’t take offense. I am told I should use “Asian” but that could be Russian, Indian, Mongolian, Japanese, Chinese, etcetera. How to differentiate, please?
DeleteYou wouldn't take offense because "Occidental" hasn't been used negatively for decades. You can use "East Asian" to express what you're trying to say.
DeleteI don't think the usage of the word is offensive in this context, but it is certainly offensive to use it to describe someone.
Got Naticked at 27A/3D - Had Unsnap for Let off the hook and I've never heard of The Goldbergs, so George Sepal sounded like it could be an actor I've never heard of...
ReplyDeleteGood, tough Tuesday puzzle. Rex doth protest too much on the themers! First of all who cares whether it’s the bartender or a fellow patron speaking, it’s clues as Welcome Comment At A Bar, not Welcome From A Fellow Bar Patton. Secondly I’ve definitely bought a drink for a friend on more than one occasion by telling them their money was no good. Excellent puzzle.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis one gave me some bops early on and so I danced around the grid, landing jab after jab until I overwhelmed it. But it was a lovely match.
ReplyDeleteI loved the wizard hat standing tall, and especially the feel-good theme. Sam A, you can come to the bar with me any time, and it's on me!
Sorry the constructor used Chicos @Kitchef and @Rex. Sometimes I'm amazed at how many men I know and that still so many football terms and names elude me. Men everywhere and still I don't know this stuff!
ReplyDeleteThe themers don't need verbs. At lunch with my 95-year-old mother-in-law, hand up to stop her, "On me Mom, my pleasure." In my plans for the day I retire, "Drinks all around bartender! I got this one." I'll make sure the bar's empty but I'm gonna say it.
The puzzle was a Wednesday but a lot of fun. Cheers!
21 Across: Treed, during a fox hunt? Don’t think so. Maybe a raccoon hunt, but not a fox hunt.
ReplyDeleteFoxes can climb trees that are straight up; they do not require leaning trees to climb. ... Gray fox climb trees head first, and they have the ability to descend a tree either tail first or head first.
DeleteDefinitely my worst Tuesday time in recent memory, mainly because of the NW corner. I recovered in the rest of the puzzle but lost so much time out of the gate that I was doomed.
ReplyDeleteThe main problem was CHICOS crossing HENIE. Have never heard of the former, and although I've seen the latter in grids before, it hasn't been often enough to actually remember her. And this was all exacerbated by the other marginal fill up there: RETAPE, UNSNAG, and SEGAL (as clued). Guessing George WENDT off the E hurt, as did guessing that {Likewise} was going to be SAMEsomething.
None of those alone were that bad, but together they made for a train wreck. Oh well. Not a huge fan of this one, but on to tomorrow.
Barney? @kitshef, my eclectus parrot is Simon, after Scott Simon, who is the author of a heart-breaking novel, Pretty Birds.
ReplyDeleteChico's was a gimme as the headquarters are here. The rest was okay.
Changing UNSNAp to UNSNAG finished the solve. I didn’t know who George SEpAL was, but I’m bad at names anyway. It was the “houseboy” of “Who’s Afraid of Virginia Wolfe” after all. Spending my career in academia made me relate to Albee’s masterwork.
ReplyDeleteExcellent, challenging but doable-rewarding puz.
ReplyDeleteThis complaint about ORIENTAL is utterly ridiculous. I'm pretty sure Rex is just trying to be controversial here, because there's no way anyone is going to be offended by that, even if they would object to ORIENTAL in its dated usage.
ReplyDeleteAgreed
DeleteNo problem with Oriental as clued. I think that the chink in this puzzle’s armor is “drinks on me”. The other themers work as stand alone phrases that one doesn’t. “The drinks are on me” would’ve worked but wouldn’t have fit. Oh well, still a nice little puzzle.
ReplyDeleteIf you’re going to use the word chink as a cute little I-can-use-slurs-so-long-as-there’s-an-alternate-definition pun, I’d prefer you just call us chinks. Best to be direct. Your comment was snide, passive aggressive, and racist. See? it’s not that hard.
DeleteFor 20 Across, I recall in High School English that "Can I" is incorrect in this instance, we should be instead using "May I"
ReplyDeleteAm I wrong?
Everybody knows NCC is National Council of Churches.
ReplyDeleteOriental literally means "from where the sun rises." Compare "Land of the Rising Sun," the actual Japanese name for Japan.
As @ Kyle says, I knew NCC instantly, though not what out stood for.
ReplyDeleteAnd I say YOURMONEYSNOGOODHERE all the time, and I'm no bartender. Actually, Rex' s ONTHEHOUSE is the one that only the owner could say.
@'mericans...interesting point...I have a real Mercator print of Portugal, and yes, it is ORIENTated as you say. ( I love maps of all sorts...this was a small indulgence I allowed myself when living in Germany near a rare map collector.)
Who remembers Northwest Airlines? Who remembers when they were Northwest Orient?
This puzzle theme made me feel happy. Whether I imagine myself as the speaker of these phrases, or as part of the intended audience, each one would make me feel glad to be there.
Thank you Mr. Donaldson!
More political correctness from Rex. Because somebody associates "ORIENTAL" with bigotry against Asians, it's wrong to use it in a puzzle when referring to Oriental Avenue? That's as dumb as it gets.
ReplyDeleteDon't get Rex's angst over the themers. They are all things you would be glad to hear in a bar, never mind who is saying them. But I disagree that the fourth would only be said by a bartender/owner. I haven't heard it in the wild, but I encountered it in a novel the other day. It was said by the designated host to the honorees at a shindig to celebrate an upcoming wedding.
ReplyDeleteI, female, have shopped at Chicos, so once I got a couple of crosses it was a given. I figure it made up for some of the sports figures that show up day after day. After day. But not enough.
"Year of Our Lord" is more insensitive than Oriental.
ReplyDelete@Leslie from the Occident: For the win!
ReplyDeleteJust wondering if "orient" and "orienteering" and "orientation" are now verboten? (Oops, maybe "verboten" is also verboten.)
ReplyDeleteDidn't really enjoy this puzzle, although I'll drink on someone else's dime every day of the week.
ReplyDeleteThe ORIENTAL comment by @Rex is probably the stupidest thing I've ever read from him.
Isn't there a town in Iowa called SOO CITI?
Best. Tuesday. Ever.
ReplyDeleteThinking MOHS immediately is the kind of thing that makes me worry that I’m doing too many crosswords.
I live near a CHICOS. Didn’t know the Sanibel Island connection. The Sanibel mayor (or maybe former mayor, now) has a summer place four doors from me. Nice guy.
@Eric NC - Yep. Damn racists ruining the language for everyone.
Regarding ORIENTAL, it is hard to argue with Rex, why go there? Yeah, sure, there are benign ways to clue it. But it’s a word tied to racism, why not just go a different direction? It’s not as bad as “beaner,” but why associate your puzzle even tangentially with hate? This is the kind of thing where having more diversity around you would be helpful. It is entirely plausible that lots of people are unaware of the racist usages of the word, but having an Arab-American sociologist for a friend (for example) might alleviate such ignorance.
No foxes in trees around here either. Occasionally "hunters" will go out with dogs and try to tree a bear, which is an abominable practice.
ReplyDeleteThe only Chico I had heard of was a bail bondsman and sponsor of The Bad News Bears. If the other Chico has any stores in New England they're in mysterious places, at least to me.
Good gritty Tuesday. Thanks SD.
CHICOS...@Rex...your wife and daughter are definitely not targets for them. Your mom maybe.
ReplyDeleteI've been in one once.fine clothing, much of it INSTYLE, geared towards us women of a certain age.
But they bug me with their sizes.
I mean, it's just an arbitrary scale. So why are their numbers better? What value does it add to me as a shopper?
If I recall, they go something like 000, 00, 0, 0.5 g
(?), 1, 1.5...
Now if they included imaginary numbers in their sizing, THAT would incentivize me to go on diet!
@Small Town Blogger: I agree. Not long ago, the answer ARI was clued as “The Cards,” and I nearly gagged. There may be a team called the Cardinals in Arizona, but The Cards are and always will be in STL.
ReplyDeleteWhile this was a satisfying enough Tuesday, I have to say I also felt it was a little off kilter. ITSMYTREAT and ILLGETTHEBILL sound more like things people would say in a restaurant than a bar. ONTHEHOUSE or ANOTHERROUND seem more in sync with the other themers. NOODGE was new to me. Loved the clue for IRAN.
Interesting the different takes on the word Oriental. Just the other day, I was telling a friend I’d like to go for egg rolls and lo mein and wondered about the proper term for that particular ethnic food. Keeping up with the PC times, yet another reason to do crosswords.
According to the Racial Slur Data Base, Chico is a racial slur meaning Hispanic. Why go there ?
ReplyDeleteFittingly ORIENTAL leads to HATEMAIL
ReplyDeleteStale theme.
ReplyDeleteOn a separate note, I wonder how many ORIENTALs and BEANERs and GO OKs we have to talk about before Will loses his job?
@‘mericans and @Tita A - Please stop with the extra syllables. Ughly.
ReplyDelete@Sir Hillary - Love your wordplay on Sioux City. And if you were flying there, your luggage tag would say it SUX.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, Jeff Chen complained about ORIENTAL also. I guess when you have been on the receiving end of scorn hurled your way, you become more perspective and sensitive. Problem is, there are just too too many words that can offend people. I wish there were a reasonable solution.
ReplyDeleteToday's puzzle might be a bit more difficult for a new solver than a Tuesday puzzle should be, but I loved it.
Using "Asian-American" instead of "Oriental" to describe people of Japanese or Chinese ancestry is actually more discriminatory than using "Oriental," because it excludes all Asians except Japanese-Americans and Chinese-Americans. "Asian-Americans" should include people from Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Myanmar, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Lebanon, etc. etc. But it doesn't. This is a classic example of the absurd lengths that people go to in order to seem tolerant.
ReplyDeleteThe term Asian-American was coined to encourage solidarity amongst various peoples of Asian descent against racism and imperialism.
DeleteThe term oriental comes from the colonization of the Middle East. Japan and China were tacked on later as “The Far Orient.” They by no means constitute the entirety of the Orient in the Western imagination.
I have never met a Chinese-American (as one, I am related to several) who wants to be referred to as oriental. Who would self-identify in the terminology of their colonizer? At worst, they consider it racist. At best, they’d think you’re ignorant
I have always loved the word ORIENTAL because it conjures up images of beauty from the Far East. I have some ORIENTAL art work and a cherished silk rug that bring a lot of joy to me. The word is only considered offensive when used to describe a person.
ReplyDeleteSo today we have bar TREATS. Almost as good as a hot fudge Sundae. I do, though, understand where @Rex is coming from. Some of these phrases don't really sound like they fit in. I kept wondering if this is being said by the bartender or is it something my gal pals and I would say while sitting on our favorite stools at The Shady Lady Saloon in Sacramento?....may I suggest the Chauffeur? DRINKS ON ME definitely but when we get to the ITS MY TREAT and ILL GET THE BILL, I think restaurant.
The clue for CLOD (Dirt ball) seemed odd. I think of a CLOD as an ignoramus and a dirt ball as a nasty. All these words that confuse the deontology virus I've been inoculated with.
Despite the NCC's of the puzzle, I rather enjoyed the "stiff" work-out. Highballs - always welcome!
@Anon - I've wondered about "The Land of the Rising Sun". That's true only from the perspective of China.
ReplyDeleteMaybe @lms can shed some light.
This from Wiki: " Prince Shōtoku, the Regent of Japan, sent a mission to China with a letter in which he called himself "the Emperor of the Land where the Sun rises" (日出處天子). The message said: "Here, I, the emperor of the country where the sun rises, send a letter to the emperor of the country where the sun sets. How are you[?]"."
@Z - I, a lowly commentator, also hate all those extra syllables, and avoid utilizing them. I just don't know what came over me...!
(I mean - no one commntates, do they??????? Why should I be demoted to a commentator, reserving commenter only for those paid to do it? I mean, sheesh! And why does one get an "or" while the other is an "er"?)
My favorite theme answer is "your moneys..." As someone reaches for their wallet/purse it is said warmly and in a funny way.
ReplyDelete"This is not a toy" is usually something said to a dog at my house.
Chicos was a brilliant business venture. They cater to women who have less-than-perfect figures but still like to dress fashionably and comfortably at the same time. Think Bea Arthur of Golden Girls.
There seemed to be too many plurals today. Kens, heys, Dalis, idols, lutes, borers. Enough already.
I like clues like "pestering people" that have words that can be different parts of speech.
Noodges?
@Z 09:14 -- Care to elaborate? Are you complaining about ORIENTAte and ORIENTAting in lieu of ORIENT and ORIENTing? And here I thought you were one of those who embraced constant change in the language. According to Merriam-Webster, ORIENTAte (and its derivatives) entered English almost two centuries ago, a century after the appearance of ORIENT as a verb. But I'll do a deal with you in exchange for you stopping with your use of one of my bugbears. :-)
ReplyDelete@Nancy from yesterday - thx for that tiny circles explanation. Now I get it, and can see your point. I thought it was an objection to that style of puzzling where certain letters within the grid are highlighted.
ReplyDeleteSo it's not that - it's just the choice for highlighting!
Yes - shading is much better.
3-n-out!
Hey All !
ReplyDeleteI'm feeling tipsy after doing this puz! Had a few if these happen to me during my bar drinking days. Unfortunately, my MONEY was always GOOD.
How was TRON inspired by Pong? I thought the movie was based off the TRON video game. A Pong movie would be rather boring, no?
LOCUTION of Borg. Har. Another NCC reference.
Almost had a DNF at SAGELY. Had NOODlES and CA_CA (not up on my stabbers) so put rArELY in, which changed NOODlES to NOODrES, which was definitely wrong. Ran the alphabet in my head to get the G, and then finally saw SAGELY. Whew! A complete, non-DNF today! No OOPS! WOO SOO! :-)
Speaking of SOO, there's a TRAIN line called SOO Lines. Lots of Double Doubles in here, central themer, LL LL, ASSESS, OK, maybe not that many!
CLOD OOPS
RooMonster
DarrinV
I think that clod and dirt ball are both pejorative words and have no reason to be in the puzzle.Color me offended.
ReplyDeleteFoxes climb trees? Heh, who knew? Evidently, according to one internet article, they're more like cats than dogs.
ReplyDeleteThe term "ORIENTAL" is yet another one of those Euro-centric holdovers that by now needs to go away. While the equivalent "occident" is just another directional word that has no particular negative connotation, it is still Euro-centric. People who live in the "orient" or the "east" don't necessarily live in the "east." As far as they are concerned they are living in the west and the peoples east of them are living in the east. San Francisco is east of Japan...why would anyone insist that Californians are western? Because Europe, that's why. And not just Europe, but European culture...which has, for a very long time, claimed to be more cultured than any other culture around the world. It is what white supremacists claim is the reason the white Euro race is superior. The Enlightenment, the Renaissance, *Art.* (Never mind that most of those yahoos wouldn't know Mozart from Mahler, Manet from Renoir, or that a lot of those "artists" from the 16th to early 20th centuries were ::gasp:: jewish and even possibly ::eek:: one of The Gays™.
So the TL;DR here is that "Orient" is oriented that way because of a Eurocentric superiority complex. It isn't that it has become non-PC, it's that it is flatly wrong. There is no east or west. We live on a globe. To claim to be the center of it all and then somehow separate yourselves from the rest of the globe is well...racist. What do people in India call Indian food? Food, that's what. It's not "Indian food" in India. It's not Mexican food in Mexico. Art is the same. It's not "eastern" music in Japan. It's music. Oriental rugs are rugs in India. Just beautiful rugs. Many of which are mass manufactured these days in America by machines in the style of a rug hand-stitched and made of wool in India.
Here in America, we talk about the North or the South or the East coast and West coast, clearly that's different. But global orientation is different from east to west...you can move east to west or west to east, but there is no "West" and no "East" like there is a North Pole or South Pole.
You are my new CRUSH, Samuel A. Donaldson. Will you be my...
ReplyDelete1)Date?
2)Bartender?
And what is all that crunch I'm experiencing right now? Bar pretzels? Bar peanuts? Bar crackers? No, it's the crunch of an unusually challenging Tuesday puzzle -- one that respects the solver's intelligence and requires quite a bit of thought. A real TREAT! And best of all, Sam [hic], it's your TREAT! Thank you so much!
I clicked the link to the NPR interview to understand why "Oriental" is offensive. I learned that the phrase is "freighted with luggage," that it's "cultural baggage," and that it "feels old" and "feels antiquated." Well that answers that.
ReplyDeleteAlso, it literally means "Eastern" and, since the world is round, anything can be seen as "Eastern" depending on your vantage point. Note to self: referring to the U.S. and Europe as "The West" is apparently racist. Who knew?
Sometimes when I read what Rex has to say I cannot help but feel inadequate. No, not because he solves so quickly but because he reminds me of his moral superiority. I am a mere dirt clod on this spinning globe with no hope of enlightenment.
ReplyDeleteIt's the name of a STREET, ferchrissakes! Now if the street name was "N-word Boulevard" I could understand the objection. But this use of "Oriental" is 100% benign. It's a word we use all the time, whether playing Monopoly or describing rugs.
ReplyDeleteWould you (Rex) object to a clue that read, "Person who worships in a shul" if the answer is "Jew"? Lots of folks - bigots, really - use that term as a pejorative.
Maybe we just need more safe spaces. To quote the Orange Menace, "SAD."
Medium hard for me, and I had fun sussing out the phrases. Would have been more fun if they had rhymed: It's my treat/drinks on me/bottoms up/'cause it's all free.
ReplyDelete@kyle 7:02: never knew that NCC stood for Naval Construction Contract, that led me to this absolutely fascinating wiki article on the design, construction, and evolution of the USS Enterprise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701)
I don't agree with castigating people because their directional references are culturally and therefore language-specific. Yes, of course Asia was the ORIENT to people in Europe, and hence in their languages. (English emerged in Europe.) I would expect Asian languages to use references based on their own geographic perspective.
ReplyDeleteRelated to that, and for what it's worth, I once precipitated a minor diplomatic incident by including in an early draft of a report on fishing policy in South Korea a map labelling the body of east of the peninsular the "Sea of Japan", as it is called on most English-language maps. The South Korean Ambassador got very upset and insisted it be labelled "the East Sea". All the subsequent discussion took place above my pay grade, but I remember thinking, "Yeah, I get it. But east of where? Should the United States now insist that the body of water to its south be called the Gulf of Texas?" In the end, the diplomatic bargain struck at the time was not to label the sea between Korea and Japan anything at all. Just leave it blank.
That was in the late 1990s. In 2012, The International Hydrographic Organization (the international governing body for the naming of bodies of water around the world) decided not to change the current single name "Sea of Japan" rejecting North and South Korea's request that "East Sea" and "Sea of Japan" be used concurrently. The UN decided it had no authority on the matter and asked the involved countries to resolve the differences over the name among themselves. I believe they have reached no resolution. Perhaps they should change it to "The Blue-Green Except in the Winter when it is Gray Sea".
Strange, I didn’t care for the theme answers at all, yet I really enjoyed the puzzle. Strange.
ReplyDeleteI would never use the term Oriential to refer to Asians, although I have no problem with using it to refer to a property on the Monopoly board and it’s a real true street name in quite a few states.
Also, surprisingly to me, some real live Asians in my very progressive town opened up a Chinese restaurant called Oriental Taste. It’s always jammed (often with Asians). Then they opened another restaurant one town over called Oriental Flavor. So there you go.
Lol I imagine those names for Chinese restaurants are quite common, but I can’t help but feel like you’re just a town away. Northampton/Amherst??
Delete@Gill and @Anon 9:38 You ain't from these parts are ya? A clod IS actually a ball or a lump of dirt, frequently clay which is damp and tends to stick to your boots when you're out in the field. That's why we call certain types of boots 'clod hoppers' out here yonder.
ReplyDeleteIf someone offers to buy me a drink, I don't care how they phrase it. Just sayin.
ReplyDeleteDo a search and see how many Chinese restaurants have the word "Oriental" in their name.
ReplyDeleteNew York, Los Angeles, San Francisco: there's a bunch.
Give them a call and tell them they're racists.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteCHICOS is widespread enough that even M&A was aware of it. And M&A is sure no clothes-horse.
ReplyDeleteOfficial M&A Help Desk Dictionary does indicate that ORIENTAL used as a noun is considered "dated, often offensive". Sayin "ORIENTAL rug" is still apparently ok, tho. Good ol' language minefields. Sooo … M&A ain't quite ready to burn his Monopoly board, yet.
This puz haz a sorta themeless look to it: all longball fillins, in the West & East marginal areas. This made things a little more challengin and therefore interestin, for a TuesPuz, as @mmorgan darlin mentioned.
fave longball by far was: ASSESS. On account of it crosses/enables 4 ass esses (yo, @AnoaBob).
staff weeject pick: NGO. Better clue: {Bingo card columns??}. honorable mention to NCC, which is definitely considered offensive … to Klingons and Romulans. Like I was sayin … minefield.
Great weeject stacks at 12 & 6 o'clock, btw.
NETH ... ick. eww. ugh. NEWDO … har
Theme was real complimentary. Didn't seem to be a Happy Hour for @RP, tho...
This was a day-um fun solvequest at our house, Mr. Donaldson. Thanx for yer hard work and generous bar code. I'll have the house margarita. Frozen, please.
Masked & Anonymo4Us (yo, @mericans … real glad to hear U are lookin out for them lil darlins.)
**gruntz**
Well done, Mr. Donaldson. Very nice, enjoyable, challenging Tuesday puzzle. Thanks very much!
ReplyDeleteThere’s also the Mandarin Oriental without apology. So no biggie.
ReplyDeleteAnd I heard and used "Your money’s no good here" for fifty years, always between friends.
I liked this a lot & it was over before I knew it - best Tuesday puzzle in a long time.
ReplyDeleteI loved this puzzle. Oriental is still a word and Oriental Ave. remains a thing. It was my understanding that oriental can also still be used for carpets and gardens and such, though maybe I need to increase my heart rate on the euphemism treadmill.
ReplyDeleteProblem with the missing verb for DRINKSONME?? Felt very natural and just as kosher as NOPROB or SEEYA (which contains no subject!)
Sorry for the griping about the griping.
@‘mericans - I never called it wrong, only “ughly.” I can’t read the damn thing without hearing a nasally “tate” followed by an immediate “ugh.” Mine was purely an aesthetic request.
ReplyDelete@Tita A - I think there is a difference between a “commenter” and a “commentator.” The commentariat are “commentators,” while while most anonymous posters are “commenters” (and anonymice are merely trolls). Where’s the line fo demarcation? I know it when I see it.
@GILL (9:26): "A lump or mass, esp. of earth or clay." (Webster's). Sometimes a CLOD is an actual "Dirt ball" and not a person at all :)
ReplyDelete@'@mericans, @GILL, @Sir Hillary, @Calman S, @Off the Grid, @Bob Mills, and @"Leslie from the Occident" (love your witty blog name) -- Thanks to you all collectively for injecting a much-needed dose of common sense, perspective (pun intended) and good humor in the face of this puzzle's latest Outrage of the Day.
@kitshef -- You have 15 CHICOS nearby, while I have lost my one-and-only store in the East 70s? That's not fair! What do you need CHICO'S for, anyway? You're a guy. Yes, it is meant for women of a certain age -- mostly because the clothes don't contain Spandex -- the worst invention of the 20th-century after the nuclear bomb and the jackhammer. And you do have to be careful when you shop there so you don't end up looking, per @Susie Q's warning, anything like Bea Arthur in "Golden Girls"! But as someone here said -- I forget who -- it's possible to look quite stylish. What I remember about them is that they had great, subtle prints. No one has great, subtle prints anymore. And, @Tita -- I never noticed their 000 sizing system. But I hate all such subterfuge. Since I absolutely loathe shopping, all I want from size tags is info that enables me to find my correct size (It used to be called a "10"; God knows what it's called now) in a nonce and not have to guess...and guess...and guess. You'd think I'd remember all those 000s and 00s, but I don't. I probably asked the salesperson to look at me and point me to the appropriate size.
From those of us here in Natick, we have the Massachusetts/kevin spacey comments at a bar, with thanks to Jim Morrison;
ReplyDelete1. How old are you?
2. Where do you go to school?
3. Can I see your ID?
4. Will you sign a consent to contact form?
5. Do you have your lawyer on speed dial?
6. Want to go back to my place and watch Cosby reruns?
Anyone who has received hate mail will tell you that they are more than poison pen letters--they are freakin scary. Also, I didn't realize I made a mistake until I saw Rex's review. I had "in couple" as in "they are in" didn't know what "it" meant in this context and I totally missed that "This is not an oy" only makes sense in my yiddish speaking family.
Rex, you're losing it. I filled in NCC near the end, and knew right away it was from Star Trek (and I was hardly a fan of the series). I get where you're coming from on the theme answers. I wanted ILLGETHTEBILL to be either BEER or BREW. So yeah, sort of bumpy. But since I'm no great solver, this felt more like a Thursday puzzle in terms of difficulty. Took me a very long time to finish.
ReplyDeleteSo we shouldn’t visit any of the many Chinese restaurants with Oriental in their names, visit the Mandarin Oriental hotel, shop at Oriental Trading Comany, or go the Revel Casino on Oriental Ave, in Atlantic City. Also, 411.com lists 81 people with the last name Oriental living in NYC. Should we shun them ? Is that what the language scolds want ?
ReplyDeleteThere happens to be a CHICOS on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. It always struck me as the kind of store where my grandmother would have shopped.
ReplyDeleteI can think of one place where ORIENTAL was used to distinguish between East and West in a way that did not refer to Asia and Europe. When I lived In what is now called the Democratic Republic of Congo, there was the province of Kasai ORIENTAL and the province of Kasai Occidental. Those two provinces were subdivided when I left and there still seems to be a Province if Kasai ORIENTAL. I lived in the province of Haut-Zaire, which had been previously known as ORIENTALe and reverted to ORIENTALe after I left. That province has now been subdivided into a bunch of smaller provinces too.
*USS* Enterprise??? it was always called 'Starship Enterprise, NCC-1701' so far as I can recall. the ID on the hull was NCC-1701. not USS or Enterprise.
ReplyDeleteORIENTAL is indeed a dated term when used to refer to people. So old, in fact, that the first term that came to mind was "ORIENTAL potentate". But I was a Bob and Ray fan 60 years ago (still am, too).
ReplyDeleteGreat puzzle, though very tough -- took me 30 minutes to do on paper,
My only complaint about the themers is, I never hear I'LL GET THE BILL." Heard all the others but what I have more often heard (and said, sometimes) is I'll get the *check*. You may refer to your credit card statement as a BILL, but for some reason, "check" is universally used in bars and restaurants.
@old timer
ReplyDeleteRemember Piels Beer?
Yep, @M&A, that ASSESS is very handy. How else could you get RAHS, NOODGES, DALIS, and STYES, all that in one corner? The mother of all POC enablers would be ASSESSES.
ReplyDeleteI was surprised to see a "Women's clothing chain" named CHICOS. Isn't that a colloquial term for young boys? Would not CHICAS be better?
@banana
ReplyDeletePlease finally admit you are wrong.
USS Enterprise
Thank you.
Mostly medium except for, like most of you, the NW which pushed this into tough territory. CHICOS was a WOE and I’ve never seen “The Goldbergs”. (The last time I saw SEGAL was in “Just Shoot Me”).
ReplyDeleteLike many of the drinks you might order in a bar, my feeling were mixed.
OFL is clearly not a "Trekkie." As for "Oriental," it's a perfectly good word. I would not use one to describe a person of Asian descent, but let's stop being so touchy about language. As the late, great George Carlin once remarked, "There are no bad words; bad thoughts, bad intentions, but no bad words." This also reminds me of the line in The Big Lebowski: "Also, Dude, "Chinaman" is not the preferred nomenclature. "Asian-American," please." Should the makers of Monopoly change the name of the street so as not to offend the "politically correct"? N.B. The "beaner" answer from last week is a whole 'nother animal, and I understand it's being objectionable.
ReplyDeleteI started out thinking I was going to CRUSH the puzzle, with that entry x CHICOS x HENIE going right in. But then it got challenging. I couldn't come up with MOHS, didn't know ORIENTAL, SEGAL, LIZ, or NCC and was just generally uninspired at dealing with the long Downs. Thankfully, the theme answers were easy enough to guess, once a few crosses were in. I did know CASCA, having played him in a H.S. production, clad in a bedsheet. Still smarting that somebody else got Cassius, with that lean and hungry look.
ReplyDeleteHelp from previous crosswords: NOODGES, TRON, KAL-EL.
Nice pairing of HATEMAIL and SNIDEST. I also liked the Harry Potter connection of RON Weasley and WIZARD HAT.
Finally, a puzzle related comment. THANK YOU!
Delete@CLODette is correct. The primary definition of clod is lump of clay. It apparently is also used do describe someone with the IQ of a lump of clay. I use it and often heard it used to describe someone who moves slowly and clumsily - as if they have 20 lbs.of wet clay on their clod hoppers or is acting as if he has a similar mental impediment.
ReplyDelete@anon 9:26 makes a good case for not using "oriental". Let it become archaic. To those who say it's only a street name, let it become an archaic street name. Was it named because asian people lived or did business there? Or did someone in an office just make them up? I notice on the map that Oriental is in the most eastern section of A.C. and the easternmost avenue that runs parallel to the Boardwalk. It is also one block from Pacific Ave. And it is just a few blocks from the end or beginning of historic and iconic Route 30. If you want to see a wonderful movie about clodhopper culture try "Route 30".
@Tita, not only do I remember the airline, I can still hear their musical tag-line in my mind. When I was growing up the only two airlines out of Green Bay were Northwest Orient and North Central -- and the latter only flew to fairly local destinations. So NW was the first airline that ever gave me a trip (to Amsterdam) for miles. I remember them fondly.
ReplyDeleteI liked the theme, and liked the puzzle generally -- it seemed to have a lot of fresh answers (I haven't counted them, though). LUTES are a lot more closely related to guitars than they are to mandolins, but it was nice to see them in the puzzle; maybe Friday we'll get a theorbo.
Anyway, everyone should calm down. There are some words none of us would use even with alternate meanings, and others that are offensive in an alternate use but acceptable otherwise -- and probably everyone draws the line between the two in a different place. The location of the line is not a matter of principle.
What I learned today: CHICO'S started in Sanibel! The first time I ever encountered one was on Captiva, the neighboring island, but I had no idea. I have to admit, though, that I put in unIqlo originally.
@JC66 (and @oldtimer)
ReplyDeleteI remember Piels Beer. Wonderful ads, because anything with Bob and Ray is wonderful, but, sadly, awful beer.
Yes TRON Was inspired by pong - the greatest of all video games.
ReplyDeleteI know under a dozen Yiddish words, and had no problem guessing noodge was a Yiddish derived word.
@pabloinnh
ReplyDeleteI seems to remember reading that Piels went out of business because the commercials were so effective and the beer so bad,
@Tita and @jberg, thanks for the trip down memory lane with (sing along) "Northwest Or-i-ent" [pause for gong strike] Airlines." Like @jberg, I took my first flight on a NW plane (prop driven, of course) in 1963, on my first leg of an AFS trip to Germany as a sixteen year old. A momentous step for this small-town Wisconsin girl.
ReplyDeleteCHICOS - I join the crowd who hasn't heard of them. To my surprise, they're all over the Twin Cities metro. I don't think I'll be shopping there any time soon. It might be my age group but not my IN-STYLE. And the incorrect CAN instead of mAy had me hesitating a moment in the NW.
ReplyDeleteI nearly DNF'd at SEGAL-UNSNAG. I had George SEpAL (not much of a TV watcher these days) after UNSNAp seemed like something you would do to let a bra off the hook. I had considered a fishing hook but couldn't think beyond "catch and release".
I'LL GET THE Beer made for an ODDS-looking WeZARD HAT so that had to get fixed. And I will send HATE MAIL to anyone making Monopoly clues - ugh - and crossing MOHS and CITI.
I won't complain about a hard Tuesday, so thanks, S.A.D.
I do not object to 'ORIENTAL' appearing in this puzzle with that clueing for reasons I'll offer below, but I think that many of the comments here are uncharitable to Rex's position.
ReplyDeleteThe argument is not that it should be illegal to use the word in general conversation, or even in crosswords. He is not encouraging anyone to use the power of state to enforce the position. Nor need he say that all uses of the word are immoral. Rather, the argument is that:
1. The purpose of a crossword puzzle is to produce enjoyment in those who do it.
2. Certain words, due to their historical uses and meaning, are likely to cause harm, or at least unpleasantness to a significant number of solvers.
3. The use of the word is not essential to the enjoyment of other solvers.
4. If a word can be changed without reducing the enjoyment of some solvers, and will avoid unpleasantness/harm to others, it should be changed.
5. 'ORIENTAL' is a word that satisfies (2)-(4).
6. Therefore, the word 'ORIENTAL' should have been changed in the puzzle.
The George Carlin position that there are no bad words is a red herring. This argument does not presume that there are bad words. It only requires that there are uses where the harms outweigh the benefits, and that crossword puzzles are a context where we should focus on that cost/benefit ratio (obviously one could believe that it is true for crossword editing but not think that it is true for government regulation of speech, for example).
Now, I as said, I am not concerned about the word 'ORIENTAL,' because I am not convinced that (2) is true. I think there are uses that would meet that condition - particularly when the term is applied to people. However, there are other uses of the term that are important - including anti-racist uses. In particular, "orientalizing" is used to describe the racism of a certain kind of positive impression of people that nevertheless others them.
It is important, however, to be fair to those with whom we disagree, and that includes the position Rex has staked out here.
@JC66:
ReplyDeleteI seems to remember reading that Piels went out of business because the commercials were so effective and the beer so bad,
"Hi neighbor, gav a Hansett!"
Slower than average for me.
ReplyDeleteNCC was a gimme. Not that I know what it stands for. I'm not a Trekkie, but we watched the entire series with our kids. For what it's worth the USS stands for United Star Ship.
I can't believe Rex is going off on ORIENTAL, what am I supposed to call my carpets? I don't use it to describe people.
I thought Caesar's first stabber might be CASio, but that's a different Shakespeare play and it's spelled with 2 s's.
Chicos was a welcome break from all the sports arcana.
Still waiting for Rex to take responsibility for bad-mouthing Hasidim as an odd plural. It is, in fact, an example of a standard masculine-plural in Hebrew. I guess ignorance and ethnocentrism are perfectly acceptable when Rex is the commenter.
ReplyDeleteI just remembered that Orient Beach on St Martin is on the eastern side of the island.
ReplyDeleteTo those who don’t know it, I recommend Edward Said’s superb “Orientalism.”
I might not have gotten the "your money is" NOGOODHERE one if I hadn't heard it just a few days ago on Cheers. My Cheers-watching made this puzzle's theme easy.
ReplyDeleteThis crossword puzzle was better for me than a lot of them. Not much sports (yay!), no cigars, not much obscure geography. I liked it. TREED reminds me about when I lived on 34 acres with a ridge and the time I could track the progress of a hunting party as the dog-barking sound moved along the ridge side. It's disconcerting because you wonder about stray bullets, especially from hunters who skipped the bar, but warmed up with a bottle or a shared six-pack.
I had trouble with NOODGES/SAGELY/CASCA and whatever that Great Lakes thing was. And the Enterprise, even though I was a rabid Star Trek fan as a teen. And SEGAL/UNSNAG. I also had unsnap. I liked this puzzle. It was the right level of challenging for me.
I began working as a social worker for the local department of social services in Maryland in 1980. At that time, when we filled out paperwork about a family, we had to enter the "race" of each member of a family. Here were our choices: white, black, Spanish-speaking, oriental. No "bi-racial", no "other". Within a few years, "oriental" changed to "Asian-American" and "Spanish-speaking" became "Hispanic." Another few years and "Hispanic" became "Latino". Then each "category" became a paragraph...instead of "Asian-American", it became "person with origins in the native peoples of China, Japan, Southeast Asia and Pacific Islands." Which left out the folks from India, Pakistan, the Middle East, etc, etc. I mean, they're only about 1 billion people in India and Pakistan, guess the state of Maryland didn't figure on that.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, since there was no check-off for bi-racial or multi-racial, you had to "assign" one race to everyone. If a child was bi-racial, you checked off the race of the mother. That was the regulation. So, for example, Barack Obama and Drake would be registered as "white", and Rob Schneider (SNL) would have been registered as "Oriental".
Don't get me started on the "religion" section.
I had a situation where a Mom saw the paper where I checked off "white" and roared with laughter. She was a white woman from Maryland and her husband was black and from Kenya. She said to me, "Next time my son gets called 'ni---r' at school or at the playground, I'll tell him to say, 'oh, you're wrong, my social worker says I'm white'".
I told my supervisor I wasn't filling out "race" anymore, because I wasn't going to classify people or determine for them what they are.
Thirty-eight years later, we still can't get it right. So constructors, spend some extra time and get rid of "Oriental", "hood", "Nazi", "chink", etc. Words can harm and words can help. Let's opt in for help.
hood?
DeleteQuite agree with objectors to extra “ate” added by some to ORIENT and COMMENT.
ReplyDelete@Clodette - best comment ever! There are many rap stars, football terms and small towns all across America I have never heard of. That doesn't make them obscure.
ReplyDeleteRex, I sincerely hope you and all the people who are sniffing at ORIENTAL plan to throw out your Monopoly sets and never play the game again. Petition Hasbro, while you're at it. I know it's time-consuming, but you, too, can make a difference...
ReplyDeleteCongratulations to Sam Donaldson, who also constructed today's WSJ puzzle. It's about the same level of difficulty and the same type of solving experience. Nice job!
ReplyDeleteIn 1986, a Chinese-American colleague kindly advised me, a Caucasian, that "Oriental" is offensive to Asians. Thirty-three years later, it is mind-boggling there are people who *still* don't know that. My gues is that the commenters in the racist-terms-are-no-big-thing camp associate almost exclusively with people of their own race.
ReplyDelete@Clodette 10:36 and @Nancy..Thanks for the CLOD explanation. Learn sumpin new every day. Feel free to put it on my tab... or @JC66's. ;-)
ReplyDelete@Airymom -- "person with origins in the native peoples of China, Japan, Southeast Asia and Pacific Islands" is indeed pretty limiting. I doubt very many people meet that criterion. Betcha a hell lot more people would meet the criterion of "person with origins in the native peoples of China, Japan, Southeast Asia or Pacific Islands", however.
ReplyDeleteOnce you start excluding names and words from the puzzle the slope becomes very slippery.
ReplyDelete@Lynx : I didn’t read anyone say racist terms are no big thing. I read many times that Oriental, as clued, is not a racist word. One of us has poor reading comprehension. If it’s me please point out two posts which imply that racist terms are no big thing. Thanks buddy.
ReplyDelete@jberg, @carola...they were my favorite airline. When I started traveling for business in earnest, it was to the ORIENT - sorry - to Hong Kong, the Philippines, and Taiwan. Northwest had the most flights. So I accumulated lotso' miles.
ReplyDeleteThey had the best frequent flier program by far.
Aah---those were the days - automatic upgrades to Business or First almost all the time.
Speaking of airline jingles, do you also remember "Yellowbird, Northeast makes the flying fun..."? Never took it, but loved the ad - sung to the tune of Yellow Bird. I think Northeast painted one set of planes yellow for their Carribean destinatoins?
4-n-out (Hey - y'all knew what you were in for when I came back here!!)
Being a white woman who's owned, fostered, and rescued only ever Siamese and Burmese cats, ORIENTAL did not jar me. Those breeds as well as others are still called ORIENTALs, and additionally I don't think anyone is clamoring for "Thai" and "Myanmarese" to replace those names. (The eponymous Zen in the photo to the right is a Burmese girl.)
ReplyDeleteThat said, "why use a term that needs defense at all" is also a valid point. I've disliked many a racist and ableist term in the NYT so just because this particular one didn't tweak me is not, in itself, a defense.
From Tierra del Fuego to Ellesmere Island we are all Americans.
ReplyDeleteBest,
john
"I can't believe Rex is going off on ORIENTAL, what am I supposed to call my carpets? I don't use it to describe people. "
ReplyDeleteI call mine Turkish. That's where it was made, and that's where I bought it. If it had been made in Iran I'd call it Persian.
Can I post yet? Today’s commentary left me disORIENTed. I only wanted to restate the adage “There’s no such thing as an atheist in a foxtree.”
ReplyDeleteYa mean “disorientated”?
DeleteGood to see ya postin....
As an Arab American, it’s obvious to me that Rex’s complaint about “ORIENTAL” is absurd. The clue did not relate to a people, and the word itself can still be a valid one in certain contexts. It’s nothing like BEANER which does not relate to baseball (as clued) and would always be offensive, especially in the Southwest. But the statement of outrage from Rex did result in more comments.
ReplyDelete@airymom - Your post reminded me of the struggle we had in my school district, a district with a high percentage of Arab-Americans, many of them recent immigrants and refugees. We used the federal definitions which meant all those Arab-Americans are “white.” That same federal government would then ask us questions about services we provided to our Arab-American population. Guess what, if you don’t have a separate “race” or “ethnicity” in your computer system it is kinda hard to run a report for a specific group of people. Of course, the whole notion of labeling, say, a sixth generation American of Lebanese descent the same as recent Yemeni or Iraqi immigrant was fraught with political implications as well. What fun.
ReplyDeleteAnyone want to discuss the new Gillette ad? No? Shucks.
@Z-When I’m looking for guidance in my life I always turn to a Dow 30 company, P&G (Gillette) for my relationship with women. Goldman Sachs for child rearing. Chevron for a mid-life crisis. Walgreen’s for spiritual insights...
ReplyDeleteFirst STABBER of Caesar. This is an exaggeration because Plutarch writes:
ReplyDelete"It was Casca who gave him the first blow with his dagger, in the neck, not a mortal wound,
nor even a deep one, for which he was too much confused, as was natural at the beginning
of a deed of great daring; so that Caesar turned about, grasped the knife, and held it fast."
So, in essence Casca gave Caesar a mere pin prick.
Hey Z the suits at Procter and Gamble apparently think this ad is good for their brand. The rest is beanbag.
ReplyDeleteRex, I agree with you about “oriental” and wow, you get a lot of doddering, sentient anachronisms commenting on your posts. So many of these comments are unreadable and so tiresome with their “ohhh please, this slur doesn’t offend ME so therefore it is totally normal and correct”. So much love for the status quo, it’s laughable. (p.s. I don’t get notifications when people reply to my comments, so folks who disagree with me (or who agree!), don’t bother replying here because I won’t read it.)
ReplyDelete@Clodette 8:10a "Sometimes I'm amazed at how many men I know and that still so many football terms and names elude me."
ReplyDeleteThis may be the best Rex take down I've ever read. ZING! Superb.
Nikki : I wish you well. I feel sorry for you because you may never leave your parents’ basement. I hope you do.
ReplyDeleteI know Sonja HENIE from Tom Malliozzi of Car Talk on NPR, "Sonja Henie's tutu" he used to say. I never knew what he was talking about.
ReplyDeleteI LOG on only to see Rex's ASSESSment is full of the SNIDEST remarks. A WRY comment here, and a TSK TSK there - the AXE grinding never stops. He can see NOGOODHERE - it's almost like reading HATEMAIL. My question is, when CANISEE more from Samuel A Donaldson? I can't WAIT. ODDS are, and with ANYLUCK, it won't be long.
ReplyDelete@Foggy et. al. Synders - Like my husband used to do with letters from his mother (Daughter of Grinch incarnate), I have learned to merely skim OFL's comments before deciding to read thoroughly. And only then if I have summoned up a wry state of mind and can visualize the appropriate Lewis Black image during the rant reading.
ReplyDeleteI thought the theme was better constructed/more interesting than the last two days, and it helped with the solve. Jus put that on my tab.
Diana, Lady-in-Waiting for Crosswords
Wow! I just tried to post, and got an OOPS! message; the whole thing was lost. In it, I challenged OFL to argue his case for being offended by ORIENTAL, because I just don't get it. Is he looking over our shoulder WHILE WE'RE TYPING??? Well, I still don't get it, and the challenge remains. I'm fed up to here with this offense-taking thing. Egad! Am I taking offense at taking offense? HELP!!!
ReplyDeleteFor a Tuesday, this puzzle has some screwy entries, including never-heard-ofs CHICOS and NOODGES. How many HEYS are there? SOO many fill clunkers: UPIN, ATOY, TAS, NETH, the crutchy ASSESS. It's like the guy just doesn't care. YOURMONEYSNOGOODHERE may be a legit offer to buy, but it still sounds like an insult. I'd never say that. The other themers seem space-adjusted, as OFL pointed out. Not tight.
On the plus side, thanks for the Star Trek shout-out with NCC (bad fill though it is), and yes, Fearless One, the true Trekkie certainly knows what the acronym stands for. Entire histories have been written about the ST universe. Bona fide Klingon dictionaries exist. We know this stuff. Also for the nod to Jor-El's kid.
Thanks too for the delightful Tina Fey as LIZ and DOD. These few bright stars twinkle amid the dark matter that is the rest of this grid. They improve the score from "other" to double-bogey.
BASE CRUSH
ReplyDeleteYOURMONEY’S NOGOODHERE,
IT’SMYTREAT, mon CHERIE,
YOUR MICRO skirt is INSTYLE, dear.
WAIT, what else CANISEE?
--- RON “TRON” HENIE
I think I’ve said all of those things, so, whatevs. CHICOS on the other hand is unknown to me, though it appears there are some around here if a gal wants to be INSTYLE. With ANYLUCK I will never see one.
ReplyDeleteNo self-respecting fox around here would ever get TREED. They’ll run your coon hounds (and hunters) to exhaustion in a veeeery wide circle. I speak from experience. NOGOOD. A raccoon or bear will climb UPIN the first suitable TREE after a hound bays.
Let’s all petition to get the ORIENTAL Avenue name changed. Sheesh.
50 years of subliminal quick-takes must have burned NCC into the brain pan.
Sonja HENIE was quite the yeah baby in her day. I’ll bet she did more than one Axel.
Any puz with a RON in it has to be good for something.
There is an ORIENTAL cocktail which is made with WRY whiskey, sweet vermouth, and lime juice, so it might just be a sixth themer. There is also an Orange CRUSH cocktail. You can also SNEAK a drink.
ReplyDeleteI wanted ahem for "Beg Pardon" instead of OOPS. OOPS seems like something you say when you spill your MICRO brew at the bar.
Learned from Crossword: Foxes climb TREEs. STYES keep your eyes open.
Feared a DNF here, but avoided it by shifting into a Wednesday/Friday mode as I encountered some unusually rough stuff. The North was tough enough for a Tuesday, but the South was tougher.
ReplyDeleteIn the SE, it was NOODGES and DALI crossed by SAGELY. In particular, the G in NOODGES, the last letter in the solve. In the SW, it was the NCC, completed by the C in LOCUTION. And LyreS before LUTES didn't help.
A well-constructed and challenging piece of work by SAD, which I would have been had I not finished.
Among all the bars extant, I'm sure there is at least one in which one or other of the themers would have been uttered by some guy at some time, especially if he/she understands the concept of "my turn". If some one says "DRINKS ON ME", I'm not going to argue with him/her.
ReplyDeleteI'm also not going to argue with those who say that ORIENTAL has racist overtones, although I don't understand it. Maybe I'm a bit thick.
Other than that, I enjoyed the puzzle.
Live long and prosper.
Thought I was going to dnf on a Tuesday so it was satisfying to see 'challenging' even with the qualifier.
ReplyDeleteNever heard of noodges, or Casca, or Chico's, but managed not to muck up the grid much except in the SE, where I had to change wisELY to SAGELY and sizEup to ASSESS.
No Oriental rugs here, but a really bad joke from the sixties. Name an Oriental god who devours himself.........Gobbledegook.
Did anyone else start with BITCH for 1A? It works with 5D HEYS and I think it is a more clever answer to "Object of puppy love".
ReplyDelete